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Author Topic:   Evolution Simplified
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 41 of 170 (309766)
05-06-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2006 4:18 PM


Re: the selection of traits
There are only so many combinations. If something doesn't exist, you can't insert new genetic information. You can assume that it will replicate itself or delete an allele here or an allele there. But if it the possible combination isn't there to begin with you can't just magically make one. For instance, on a lock combination of a safe, there are only so many variables out of nine numbers. The combinations are well into the thousands, and that's a large number, but we aren't going to ever get the number 10 by shuffling 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9. Does that make sense?
The problem with your safe analogy is that the lock in the safe is a static, unchanging object. The genome is not. Every time an organism reproduces there is the possibility that the genes it passes on will be altered. Chromosomes can split apart, the can join together, single amino acids can be switched for other amino acids. All of this leads to a varying length of the genome and the emergence of new traits that weren't there before.
Now it's true that the genome of populations is never infinitely long so there will never be an infinite number of combinations, but the actual number of combinations is going to be very very large. It doesn't take much of a change to alter the organism (in fact changing a single amino acid could make a meaningful change), so there effectively is no "brick wall" in sight.
Now i'm no biologist so i'm sure someone will come along and explain this a whole lot better than me (and maybe even make corrections to what i've said), but I think my basic point is valid.

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 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 4:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 6:39 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 52 of 170 (309928)
05-07-2006 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Hyroglyphx
05-06-2006 6:39 PM


Re: the selection of traits
Octopi DNA is different from human DNA. There is a gulf between the two that is inviolate. What that means is, if you have AB, you could concievably get BA, AA, or BB, but how in the world are you going to get ABC, if C doesn't exist somewhere in the genome already, even in junk DNA? But macroevolution is dependent on making a C where a C doesn't exist and moreover, can't exist.
Unless my knowledge of biology is way off, what you've said here isn't accurate. Octopi DNA is made from exactly the same things as human DNA, and any other DNA. The basic building blocks are Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine and Thymine (AGCT). Where is it that you think the fundamental difference is? What is the 'C' in your example?
In the same token, they share 96.5% similarity with a field mouse and 52% DNA with a banana! That doesn't mean that any one of us evolved from fruit.
Well I'm not a geneticist so I think i'll have to leave this to someone more qualified to explain, but from what I've read it's a lot more complicated than simply looking at similarities. For a start you can never say "organism A descended from organism B", but you can work out if organism A and organism B were likely to have shared a common ancestor, and maybe even what characteristics that common ancestor would have had.
Oh, I agree that the possible combiniations are inconceivably great, much more than the 'combination safe.' But if you have the number 100, there is a finite number of combinations available to you. Therefore, there really is a brick wall. But I also agree that a seemingly modicum of change can have irrepairable consequences. But that's another you need to consider. The vast preponderance of genetic mutations are either neutral or horrifically detrimental.
Well yes I do agree that there really is a 'brick wall', defined by the limit to the amount of genetic material that can fit into a cell. I have no idea what that limit is, but I imagine it is so large as to be meaningless. There's plenty of room to swing that cat!
As to detrimental mutations, I don't think there's any objective way to look at a mutation and say whether it is detrimental or beneficial. If a mutation makes no functional changes to a protein then it is neutral, that is objective. Detrimental and beneficial are highly dependent of the current environment of the organism though. What would be detrimental in one place and time could be beneficial in another place and time. It isn't a black/white situation, it's many shades of grey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-06-2006 6:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 66 of 170 (310012)
05-07-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hyroglyphx
05-07-2006 2:45 PM


Re: the selection of traits
In any case, there does seem to be an inviolate gulf affixed between us. If there wasn't, we'd expect to see humans and chimps able to procreate...
I'd be interested to know how likely it is that we could procreate with our closest relatives. We have one less chromosome than chimps as far as I know, which may make it impossible to successfully reproduce.
...or a chance mutation so catastrophic that a human could actually birth a Chimpanzee (or whatever) for no good reason.
As far as I know the average number of mutations from parent to child is 10-15. Most of those will have no functional effect i'm sure. Even if they did, that wouldn't come close to being enough changes to produce a chimpanzee-like creature. Why exactly do you think it should be a likely occurence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-07-2006 2:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2006 3:36 PM happy_atheist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4945 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 70 of 170 (310066)
05-07-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Chiroptera
05-07-2006 3:36 PM


Re: the selection of traits
One of the human chromosomes looks exactly like two chimpanzee chromosomes joined end-to-end. So the reason that humans have one less chromosome than chimps is that sometime after the human/chimp split, a pair of chromosomes joined together.
Now, this is not sufficient by itself to prevent interbreeding; I think that there may be examples of this type of chromosome fusion where the individuals with now differing numbers were still interfertile. In fact, they have to be interfertile, otherwise that first individual with the fused chromosomes could not pass on the fused chromosomes into the next generation.
So, if humans and chimps are not interfertile, it is because of greater differences in the genome than simply the chromosome number
Yes, I was aware that the difference in chromosome numbers was due to a fusion of two other chromosomes (way too much time reading this forum!) But as you say I can now see that the differing numbers of chromosomes aren't enough of a reason to say we're not interfertile. I imagine that's one scientific study that won't get done though, and definitely off topic to this thread anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Chiroptera, posted 05-07-2006 3:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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