We Evolved Pretty Quickly

Well ... technically we are one of the results of
approx. 3.5billion years of evolution.That is we have had 65million years MORE than the
dinosaurs.

I was really just pointing out the mis-conception about
how long it took us to evolve.The preexisting traits that led to us were evolving for
millions of years prior to the 65million referred to as the
time to produce humans.If WE burn more fuel due to our intelligence, then the same
fitness benefit would apply to any creature.If we don't, then, well, the reasoning kindof fails there All extant creatures are the result of the last 3.5Billion years
of evolution on the planet. Truncating that at some
arbitray point in the past is, well, arbitrary ... and in my
opinion mis-leading.

Maybe ... thems the chances you take with allowing
an evolutionary system to get going.The problem I have always had with the 'global extinction of
dinosaurs' is that that is not what you can see from the
fossil record.What you see is that a large number of species of dinosaur
disappeared ... those that accept that birds stem directly from
dinos. cannot calim global dino. extinction, since every
christmas robin is a descendent of the dino. family branch
that led there.

I like it And it is consistent with scientific research from a variety
of fields.In this thread, however, the OP suggested an acceptance of
the contempory modern time-scale for the earth and life
upon it ... so this issue is off topic for this thread.

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Now, if we are to believe Mr. Spielberg, at least one of the dinosaur species themselves was pretty high up on the list of smart things

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Jurassic Park is based on the novel by Micheal Crichton -- and he
does do his researcha nd have access to various knowledgable
sources (or so he claims)

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But again, you might also have meant to say that something conscious did not evolve. If so, you have a point, because consciousness (of the type we humans possess) is indeed unique in the animal kingdom, as far as I know

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How exactly DO you know that?

That was why I said 'How do you know' ... becuase
you said 'as far as I know'.Your answer tells me that you are guessing rather than
basing your supposition on any particular data/research findings
etc.How do you know that chimpanzees aren't conscious in the
same sense that we are? Or lions and tigers and bears, oh my...What is the measure of consciousness, or the method for
detecting it or ... hopefully you see what I am asking now.

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Substantial morphological or biochemical changes can lead to new traits which then lead to a whole new series of adaptations

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What I meant (rather than individual traits per se) was that
extant traits are founded on traits that preceded them.To say that the latest model of car is 'new' neglects the fact
that without the Model-T it wouldn't exist in its current form.Evolution is a process of change and (very loosely speaking)
refinement over time. It reminds me of Newton's 'If I have
seen farther it is because I have stood on the shoulders
of giants.'In specific reference to consciousness we cannot know that
dinosaurs (for example) were not conscious ... unless one comes up and
asks us to tea of course.[This message has been edited by Peter, 07-30-2003]

My feeling, from things I have read and behaviours I have
seen (in documentaries -- unfortunately I don't get out
the serengetti nearly as much as I'd like ) I would
consider some degree of consciouness necesarry for social
animals -- not necessarily hive/insect type societies -- but
who knows?In another response I asked about how one can measure consciousness,
any ideas?

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'How consciousness is measured' needs a bit more elaboration, I think. What exactly about consciousness is it that we would like to measure? The degree of self-consciousness?
The extend to which an animal is able to project himself into a future scenario?
Or into someone else's shoes?

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That's why I asked.Are those things above indicators of consciousness?What IS consciuosness?

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You mentioned "social animals -- not necessarily hive/insect type societies --"
What about the 'consciousness' of an insect society as a whole?

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I have no problem with that as a concept -- I was simply alluding to
the proposition that complex behaviour can emerge from the
interaction of multiple agents following simple rules.This is less likely to be a factor of, say, lionesses/wolves
hunting in groups.It largely depends on what consciousness is considered to be.

Thanks, I'll search around.