Yahweh and Amen, Christian God and Truth. Coincidence with Pagan Religions?

No one knows the exact pronunciation of YHWH for sure since it was lost a very long time ago. However, many bible scholars and Jewish, who are familiar with Hebrew language, have suggested that it should probably be pronounced as Yahweh. However. My common sense suggests that Yahweh is very unlikely.First. I heard that there are A, I, U, E, O, 5 vowel sounds in Hebrew, but E and O sounds was later introduced and included in the Hebrew language. Therefore, only A, I, and U, 3 vowel sounds were spoken among Hebrew-speaking Jews in the very early ancient times. If the correct pronunciation of God’s name is a thing important, then, God’s name should be probably a word that can be pronounced more universally regardless of ages and races such as papa in English and probably should be a combination of vowels A, I, and U rather than that of E and O.Second, the pronunciation, Yah-Weh (or Ya-We) sounds exactly the same as Iove (pronounced as Ya-We among Latin speaking population), which means Jupiter or Zeus in Classic Latin language. I think it is absurd that YHWH’s name is pronounced exactly the same as pagan Roman Supreme God, Jupiter or Zeus among Latin speakers.
I also think it’s interesting anyway that there are some coincidences in Christian or Jewish religious languages and God’s names in other religions such as Amen has been a Egyptian supreme sun God Egyptian supreme God.Was the pronunciation of Yahweh and Amen just a linguistic coincidence among those who speaks different languages? Or Was there some underlying theories about it? Any opinions on this matter?This message has been edited by dh26, 07-16-2005 10:23 PM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

it is likely that the name was not originally "yah-weh" although it appears to be used that way by the time exodus was written. in exodus, god uses a pun on his name, related to the verb hawah "to exist." in the grammar of the time, various vowel usages of y_hw_h would be different tenses of existant: "he who existed" "he who will exist" or "he who exists." since god seems to be a present tense kind of guy (it also denotes an eternal aspect) "he who exists" was settled on: yahweh.in actuality, it's probably missing a syllable. ancient hebrew is a consonant-vowel syllable language, like japanese. modern hebrew is to a degree, but only because of its roots. in the old language, they didn't need the vowels -- they were implied from the consonants.so, the word was probably y_h_w_h(_). for whatever reason (anyone know?) the consonants on the end of the word don't appear to have vowels associated nearly ever. but middle h, between two consonants, would have.some have suggested that the middle h_ character is similar to the h that got added to abram and sarai's names, to denote holiness. this leads some people to think the name might have originally been "yahaweh" or maybe even "ye'hawah" or some variant.but i don't eally know. either way, i suspect that it's a coincidence of language that ioue and yhwh are similar. if we take things through enough languages, they end up looking very different than their sources. for instance, through some extraordinary feets of bad translation, "yahweh" has come to be rendered as "jehovah" in english, which sounds, still, remarkably like "jove." yet neither was originally pronounced this way, and they went through different languages to get there.as for amun and amen, they are not pronounced the same. amen is pronounced "aw-mane" in hebrew, apparently.

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I don't have too much to add to the discussion but perhaps someone who knows something can add to this:I remember reading something somewhere about Israel being a combination of 3 egyptian gods, Isis, Ra and I forgot where the El came from, to get IsRaEl. Just a random thought from reading these 2 posts, and I've forgotten what I read about this and hope someone else knows.

well, "el" is babylonian for "god(s)." and that's probably NOT a coincidence, unlike the rest of it.

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To: arachnophiliaThanks arachnophilia for your interest in the topic and explanation for my question.
As you stated, Amen seems clearly not a coincidence in the original languages but just seems a coincidence in alphabets in English translation.There are many coincidences among different cultures and languages. (or common language among ancestors??). For example, across different cultures and languages, father, mother, daddy, mommy seems to be composed of some combination of a, f, b, or m sounds.
I also heard native American Indians called their God Allia or Alla similar to the sound of what Muslims would pronounce today.Going back to the topic again, I heard that Iah or Ya was a Egyptian moon God or goat God. Example on the web:Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's QuestionsI also heard Ya-reah means moon in Hebrew.
Hebrew also called the moon God Yah as the Egyptian do.Yahweh had also been identified as God of thunder and lightning. In addition, some suggest that YHWH in very old ancient Hebrew represents four heavenly family members (Y = father, creator; H = mother, Asherah; W = son; H = daughter, Anath).Based on the suggestions and findings I described above, I may suggest the following 4 theories:1. Hebrew God is the only Almighty God, and YHWH was falsely inserted in the OT or it is not a proper noun of his name.2. Hebrew God is the only Almighty God, and the Hebrew God YHWH is the correct name for the Almighty God, but it has nothing to do with the moon God or the heavenly family, and the same name is just a coincidence or something else.3. Both YHWH in the OT and the Heavenly family members are correct, and the Hebrew God is not the Almighty God but just a myth like other religions.4. The YHWH in the OT is correct and probably the same God as Egyptian or Greek God.Somebody has also suggested that Alleluia or Hallelujah, which means Praise God, was not originally in the Greek NT, and in the original Greek NT, it was spelled as eleleu ih, which means Mighty God is Alive, in both Paleo-Hebrew and Greek tongue.
He even suggests that Hallelujah originally means Praise Moon God. (Hallelu; Praise + Jah; Moon). I am not sure his claim is true or not.Anyway, I cannot judge which theories is the most correct one based on my rational ways of thinking due to limited information available to me.However, my subjective and less objective opinion on this matter is:If I am forced to choose one theory I need to believe, I probably would choose, number 1.The reason is, though pretty subjective, the sentence in the Bible (Exodus 30:14), I am that I am, sounds something like this to me: I am the only God, and I don’t need to be called by a proper noun. In a family group, if there is only one father rather than more than two, I think the best way for their children to access and call his father is to call him father or daddy in stead of proper noun such as James or Michael since there is only one father.When it comes to God, there is only one Almighty God, and God may not need to distinguish himself from other Gods by a proper noun since he is the only one, and the best way for people to call him seems to me Almighty in English or Shaddai in Hebrew.It was just my very subjective opinion anyway.To Catholic Scientist:I heard Israel literally means, he will rule as God. I guess most people would think this way.Anyway. The theory that Israel is a combination of Isis + Ra + El sounds interesting though it may not be true. However, that seems plausible. For example, "Isis" may mean material, Yin, and "Ra" may mean sun, energy, or Yang, and El may mean God. It may perfectly represent Yin-Yang theory, or what six-pointed star may symbolize in Jewish Kabala or Chinese Taoism.Thanks to all. Edited long non-working url to fix page width - the QueenThis message has been edited by dh26, 07-21-2005 08:47 PMThis message has been edited by dh26, 07-21-2005 08:50 PMThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 07-25-2005 07:45 AM

some hebrew words do have egyptian origins. this might not be a coincidence. although judaism likely DOES have polytheistic origins, i doubt yhwh was ever more than the name of a single god.there are a couple traditions that seem to have gotten confounded. the easiest way to attack this is to look at the different ways to which god is refered:el, and variations: "god" in various semitic and mesopotamian languages. el elihu, el shaddai, etc, may all have originally been different gods who got compiled into different ways to refer to the same god.eloyhim: "gods" plural. it's used as a singular word in hebrew grammar. although the verb case won't apply to analogy because it's singular in hebrew, think "pants" or "scissors" in english. at one time, pant was a singular object, as was scissor. but we don't think of them that way anymore. same with eloyhim.yahweh: still used as a proper name (read adonay or LORD aloud)yahweh eloyhim: "LORD God". yahweh might have been the highest of the gods, might not have. at some point, his name was combined with the title eloyhim.there are other entities that may be godly in origin: the sons of god. no one actually knows, however. they are commonly treated as angels. however, in hebrew "son" can "member of." for instance, israelites are called ben-y'israel. the sons of israel, part of the group called israel. so ben-eloyhim could be part of the group called gods. it might also still be a fanciful way to refer to kings. there's nothing in the text to indicate otherwise, even if later tradition reads it as "angel." other cultures commonly called their kings gods, and israel seems to have referred to their kings as the son of god (see psalm 2). no, probably not. "yah" is a common shortening and derivation of the yahweh. it's in a lot of hebrew names: elijah, isaiah, zechariah, nehemiah, jeremiah, zephaniah, etc. it does not seem to be related to an (possible) linkage to a similar egpytian word. just the later hebrew one. then you've missed the joke. "i am that i am" in hebrew is "ehyeh asher ehyeh." ehyeh is a tense of the word hayah, "to be" is the root word of yahweh, "he that is." feel free the point out the "asher" too. i think that's sort of funny too.anyways, yes, it does appear that yahweh is a name he makes up on the spot to mess with moses. similarly, hebrews call god "adonai" or lord. not by his name. i think god was trying to make moses look stupid for asking god his name. shaddai "almighty" actually means "most high." as in higher than the other gods. it is also suggested that "yahweh eloyhim" was used to distinguish WHICH eloyhim they meant. israel means "he who contends with god." it's another joke. the person named israel was said to have fought with god in the desert. and the country called israel was renowned in the bible for being, well, a "stiffnecked people" who disobeyed god a lot. israel comes from the verb "sarah" which means "to have power" in the sense of persevering in a battle. (similarly, as a separate noun, sarah means princess. if you listen you can hear it in israel: yi-sraw'el)so it's sort of a pun. both power, and defiance. the hebrew love their puns.

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That there would be similar pronunciations and titles given the almighty should be of no surprise. Names/titles such as..........
Adonai Jehovah Jireh El (the Strong One) Jehovah-Mekaddishkem El Elohe Yisrael Jehovah-Nissi El Elyon Jehovah-Rapha Elohim Jehovah-Rohi El Olam Jehovah- Sabaoth El Roi Jehovah-Shalom El Shaddai Jehovah-Shammah Immanuel Jehovah Tsidkenu Jehovah Yah or Jah YHWH
and these are just a few examples.Accepting that at one time man spoke a single language and that God Himself gave the multiplicity of languages we have, it should surprise no one that similarities exist between the languages when referring to God. He is that He is. "He is" should also suffice as His name and I would wager that every language in the world has a word or phrase that means "He is".You want to give God a name? How about Master, or Saviour, or Divine Creator? There is a name that we do know and according to the scriptures it is the name above all other names. Perhaps that name is the most appropriate name we can ascribe to God Almighty.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

I greatly appreciate your answers. I personally think your statements sound very reasonable and make good sense to me. I agree with you on most statements you made on this posting.However, I have another point of view on the name of God in the Bible.While surfing the web, I ran into a statement that says I AM THAT I AM,and tell them I AM sent me unto you..(Exodus 3:14~15) was originally written in Septuagint Greek as, ego eimi ho on ,,,,,,,,,,,and tell them ‘ho on sent me unto you.Under the assumption that Septuagint Greek is truly authentic,I guess it is likely that Ehyeh in ancient Hebrew may have multiple meanings or may be the same sound of different meanings such as saw (noun) and saw (verb) or see vs. sea, in English language.That is, the first Ehyeh and the second Ehyeh may be subtly different in meaning or sound:
I guess the first Ehyeh means I am as in English, and the second Ehyeh means I exists or the exiting being.
So, in English, the sentence, I am that I am,,,,, should have been translated as I am who is the existing being or I am who is alive ,,,,,,, and tell them the existing being has sent me unto you.The next paragraphs says, this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.Let me make an assumption: assumption that God’s name is surely knowable for someone who studies Bible seriously, and the name of God is in the Bible.Then, under the assumption, the only name we can know for sure from the Bible is Ehyeh, which was said, my name forever and memorial unto all generations.There is a controversy on the tentagram, YHWH, whether or not it is a correct insertion into the Bible. In addition, from YHWH, a person, who reads the Bible, cannot know a correct name of the God for sure. That is, no one can be sure of God’s name even though they read the Bible seriously if the YHWH is the God’s name.
However, if Ehyeh is the God’s true name, then, a person, who reads the Bible, is able to know the name, Ehyeh.In addition, the meaning of Ehyeh, I am, I exists, I am alive, or I am the existing being, also matches the philosophical definition of God very well since God is often described ass essence that exists all the time or the existing being.My conclusion is that it is very possible that the correct name of God in the Bible is Ehyeh.
Under the assumption that Ehyeh is a correct name,
One problem is, e sound is not universal. That is, most infants or babies don’t seem to be able to pronounce it correctly though they can pronounce a, u, or i sounds easily such as papa, mommy. Therefore, it may not be important for an infant to know his name, or it is possible that Ehyeh is not the Father’s name, but Savior’s name.Thanks arachnophilla for letting me know the sentence, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. I came to know one very possible name of God thanks to you.

Editorial James. You are correct. In addition, I think not only language but also symbols have much in common. I think the similarity can be ascribed broadly to 1: common root, common thoughts, 2: Coincidences, 3: Deliberate change by some good or bad person.For example,One strange thing I feel is I can see some similarities among symbols among different religions. I sometimes feel how come one line of religions (Judaism & Christian) where a Creator is relevant and another line of religions (Taoism & Buddhism) where a Creator is irrelevant, how come the two different lines of religions have produced the symbol of their religion very similar in shape?First, those Taoists in my country (actually I am from one of far eastern countries), when they first see six-pointed star, are often amazed at and deeply impressed with how come the six-pointed star, a symbol of Judaism, represents Taoism that well, and they say the symbol of Tao and the six-pointed star is identical in meaning.Second, Cross also represents Yin and Yang, and a variants of cross has been used as a symbol of Buddhism for many centuries in Eastern Asia before our people didn’t even hear of the Jewish or a name of Jesus.Third, Catholic priests sometimes carry beads with them, and the beads they use are different in shape from the beads Buddhists wear. However, when they have a chance to closely examine Catholic beads, they are also amazed at the fact that the Catholic beads, which is complex, are a way better to explain Buddism and Taoism than Buddist’s beads itself.Given these similarities, many Taoists in my country, who read the Bible, think or believe that the God in the Bible and the God in Taoism are the same entity and the same God and basically the same origin, but due to misunderstanding of Bible, Christians don’t understand that they are innately the same. In contract, some Christians tell them it is absolutely not true.It is possible that the same symbol was just a coincidence since the shape might have implied many different things in the eyes of different individuals, and the meaning of one symbol lied in the eyes of the beholder, and the simple symbols have different meanings among different individuals. The simple shape is also easy to draw or create.
It is also possible that it was not a coincidence but there were some common underlying ideas, beliefs or common underlying religious principles, some common ideas they wanted to express about their Gods, which might have led them to produce the similar image.This message has been edited by dh26, 07-23-2005 09:20 PMThis message has been edited by dh26, 07-23-2005 09:25 PM

i have a friend who prefers "daddy."

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this may not be a good assumption. although it's the earliest bible we have, it's also a translation. it has to be weighed against the masoretic (and vice-versa). "he who exists" or "the existant one" tends to be a popular english rendering. he does use the name yahweh again before saying that it's actually his name. it sounds like at first he's pulling a joke on moses, and then thinks better of."go tell them 'i am' sent you. no wait, go tell them yahweh sent you." then it mentions it being his name for all generations:

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Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

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he also mentions that he wasn't known by name to abraham and isaac (et al)

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Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

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this is of course inconsistent with genesis:

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Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

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Gen 21:33 And [Abraham] planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

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so from the position of exodus, it might be incorrectly place in genesis. [qs]My conclusion is that it is very possible that the correct name of God in the Bible is Ehyeh./qswell it is. it's just another grammatical usage of it. ehyeh os a form of hayah, and yahweh is another form.

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A most appropriate title.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

Basically,
I cannot agree with you, but I cannot disagree with you either.The reason is:When two names are in competition such as Ehyeh vs. Yahweh or Ehyeh vs. some other variants of YHWH like here,the fact that one name is true does not necessarily make the other name false (God may have two or more correct names or two or more correct pronunciations, and both may be correct). Also, the fact that one name is false doesn’t necessarily make the other name true (Both can be false). Therefore, as you probably agree with me as you stated, basically, more than two names are possible.However, I just like to make more arguments for the name, Ehyeh over YHWH.I will first summarize things happened in the Bible from my personal point of view as the following.In 3:6, God told Moses that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
In 3:14 Moses told God I would tell the pubic that God of your fathers sent me onto you, and he asked God for additional information, what he should tell the public if they ask him God’s name? (here, Moses seemed to clearly understand God’s previous message that he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, restating and summarizing him as God of his fathers before God tell him so. That is, Moses were understanding the messages very well).Then,God told Moses, tell them I AM sent me upon you. if they ask his name.Here is an important point to make.I think God wouldn’t let Moses lie to the public that his name is Ehyeh if his true name were not I Am. That is, God wouldn’t let Moses lie to the public, which is a violation of God’s commandants.
If the purpose of God’s statements were to make Moses better understand his statements or joke with him, God would probably have just told Moses that I am that I am and gave some additional information about him, and God wouldn’t ask him to state the sentence in front of the pubic.Another point is if God’s name is he exists, then, it sounds something weird to me because, God seems referring to some other being. However, if God’s name is I exists, then, it seems God is referring to himself.Sorry. It’s just my subjective and personal point of view, and it certainly is not something generally agreeable. As I stated before, I don’t disagree with you anyway.Regarding your statement, Sepuagint Greek version must be weighted against Masoretic, and vice versa, I completely and totally agree with you. So as you stated, my assumption may not be a good one.Finally, for the inconsistencies in the Bible, well..we can make up any inconsistencies by coming up with a new theory such as the name they called on was just God Almighty, or the first God and the second God are different Gods,,,and so on . Anyway, it seems an inconsistency anyway in general.This message has been edited by dh26, 07-25-2005 07:49 PM

no, i do agree that two (or more) names are possible. god goes by "yahweh" as well as "el" (and variants: "el shaddai," etc). the problem is that i just don't agree that "ehyeh" is a different name. it's just a different usage of the same word.for instance, i go by "two names" in my everyday life. one is my legal name, spelled in a very formal english middle-ages kind of way. the other one is what i go by, an americanized shortening of said name. one's half the length of the other, and they start with different consonants. there's an extra vowel in the english version, too.confused the hell out of my teachers in high school. they knew i went by the shorter name, so they'd just truncate the english spelling. which is not how i spell it at all. but said out loud, it's obvious that they're the same name.same with ehyeh and yahweh. ehyeh is a truncation of the formal lengthy version, and yahweh is the "slang" version. this name also got shortened into yah (jah). would you agree that those names are not in competition? yes, and then god says, in the very next verse "yahweh" instead of "ehyeh." then he says that's his name. and he doesn't -- he corrects moses to the other tense before telling moses to go. god can't break his own commandments? god tells us not to kill -- but god himself can. well that's essentially the difference. ehyeh is "i exist." yahweh is "the existant one."it's the difference between me and you. when my little brother was toddler, we used to play a trick on him. i'd point to myself and go "me." then i'd point to him and go "you."so he'd mimic the actions. he'd point to me, and say "me." then he'd point to himself and say "you." it took him a while to learn, but it gave use great kicks, especially since after he learned, he'd still do it backwards on purpose, even when we reversed it ourselves.but anyways -- the point is that we never refer to ourselves in the third person, using our name. unless you're bob dole, anyways. and god is not bob dole (i hope). so when he says "I AM" he means moses to say "HE IS" to others. that's the problem with being named with a verb like that in hebrew, i guess. no, it says ha-shem (the name) of yahweh (the LORD). it specifically states they were using the name yahweh a few times. not so much the first and second, but the j and e gods. although i suspect e came about by adopting babylonian terminology instead of using the name itself. in other words, the same god, different set of people with different customs regarding the sanctity of ha-shem. it is, but what are you gonna do? at any rate, if you're accepting that a name was inserted into the text, it's a half-decent case that "yahweh" is a later addition to genesis.

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