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Author
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Topic: Christian Laws
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 64 of 392 (512474)
06-18-2009 11:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by purpledawn
06-18-2009 11:13 AM
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Re: St.Paul & HaMachiach - principles, standards and laws
Agape in the NT and love today are not the same... Plus even though we use the one word "love" the writers of the NT used various greek words to bring across their meaning. Which meaning of love are we judged by? The past or the present? See the problem? It's not so much that as it is that Greek words were much more well defined towards specifics than English are... At least for this word, as you seem to be alluding to. For how many words English uses for synonyms, it is surprising that love has few, if any, true synonyms that capture the emotion. For instance, "I love cheeseburgers" versus "I love you." That's a significant difference, yet the same word is used, incorrectly in my opinion. Kinda minimizes love, aye? My point is that Agape is just one form of love and trying to translate it with the English word of "love" doesn't tell the whole story. I understand what you arguing about though.  What exactly is the problem you are presenting?
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2009 11:13 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 65 of 392 (512475)
06-18-2009 11:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
06-17-2009 7:01 AM
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Re: Laws, eh?
This is unlike the mosiac law, or islamic law. If you are born into those nations (jews/muslim) you must abide by the laws by default. There is no choice. Very true.
God is not as unreasonable as many believe him to be. Hmmmmmm... I don't know about that. If the only reason we physically die is because of Adam and Eve's colossally epic screw-up, how is that not paying for the sins of the father? Sounds like a raw deal to me.
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Peg, posted 06-17-2009 7:01 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 77 by Peg, posted 06-18-2009 10:42 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Love Your Neighbor - A Law?
Love your neighbor as yourself is a saying that was mentioned by Jesus and by Paul to be a summation of the laws and commandments. A summary is not a law. Just saying the word "love" does not give one the specifics necessary to know if one is doing what God expects or not. Didn't Jesus specifically say that by loving God and neighbors as themselves that they sum up the law? Meaning, if you can accomplish these two tasks, nothing more would be asked of you, for by doing them you are in essence complete. You have to think of the difference between the NT and the OT. The NT is supposed to be a chronicling of the New Covenant. Part of the plan, according to the bible, is that the old covenant is no longer valid for those who choose the new covenant. The old Jeremiah verse comes to mind. Something like "Behold, I am doing a new thing in you..." It might have been in Isaiah. Can't remember for sure.
My point is that for a law that we are going to be held accountable to on judgment day, it is very vague and as you've shown, meanings are very different and cultures change over time. I don't think it's very vague. I think the problem is that people complicate it. It's pretty simple: Love God and others before self, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and you can't go wrong. The problem comes in during the application phase. As simplistic as it is, no one can perfect it. But, then, maybe that's the whole point. I don't know. I'm not a Christian, but these ideals seem to be something that everyone should seek after regardless of whether or not they believe in the gospels. Even the first one (loving God). Even if you don't believe in an all-knowing being, couldn't God represent the totality of all life? And in respecting the power of that mystery, you in essence love God anyway. I don't know... I'm brainstorming here.
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2009 1:07 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Laws Again
Why are these part of Christian law today? Are we accountable before God concerning these? Unless it is Kosher, there is blood in the meats we consume. Besides, I thought the food laws didn't pertain to us. Inconsistency. Abstain from sexual immorality. Again, clarity. What specifies sexual immorality in Christian law? Then and today. Pious followers of Judaism sometimes irritate the hell out of me. I've met some devout Jews that look at you eating shellfish as if you just murdered a baby, but don't seem the least bit conflicted about engaging in extra-marital affairs. Where is their sense of priority? I'm pretty sure that if God exists, he'd be slightly more concerned with affairs of the heart over dietary laws. But anyway, Levitical law isn't part of being Christian because of the new covenant. The epistles go over that in great detail. Where is the confusion?
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2009 3:43 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Laws Again
Since Christian's don't abstain from blood it apparently isn't a law. It doesn't apply to gentiles and never has, even from the time it was passed in to Mosaic law. So isn't that irrelevant? Even Jews say that it is irrelevant and that Noachide law is all that Yahweh ever cared about as far as law and gentiles are concerned.
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2009 5:59 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 06-19-2009 5:43 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 86 of 392 (512585)
06-19-2009 9:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Peg
06-18-2009 10:42 PM
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Re: Laws, eh?
if God had of allowed A&E to die childless, or perhaps created a new perfect pair, then the laws of genetics would imply that neither you nor I would have been born. That doesn't bother me.
I view it as a mercy that he allowed A&E to bring forth children in their imperfect condition. How is that merciful, especially when watching children die horrifically? Don't you ever ask yourself, what's the point? One of the biggest questions the bible never goes over is why God allegedly created anything in the first place? It goes over what, it goes over how, it goes over when, but it never goes over why.
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Peg, posted 06-18-2009 10:42 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Love Your Neighbor - A Law?
Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you isn't necessarily the right thing. People carry a wide variety of personalities. It isn't a one size fits all. If I'm a quiet introvert, pulling me out for a night of drinks and bar hopping isn't the way to cheer me up even though it might be the way that person wants to be cheered up. Yes, but you overlook that no one would want to be forced to do something against their will. So, forcing them to do things against their would not be doing unto others as you would have them do unto to you. It's a common sense instruction.
Rabbi Hillel's version supposedly said: "What is hateful to you, do not do unto others." That works too. And, you know, Hillel came up with the law of reciprocity before Jesus did. Don't think too many Christians are aware of that fact, or if they are, they're ambivalent to it.
Basically we have to remember that our decisions and actions can affect others and not just humans, but wildlife and the planet. We have to be aware of the side effects and consequences of our actions. No doubt.
Yes the ideals are great, but is it a law? That is the issue at hand, not whether its a good idea to be nice or not. Well, I certainly don't agree with Peg on everything. But right now we're not judging the bible's veracity, right? Right now we're simply debating interpretations. From best I can tell, I agree with Peg that per the bible it is a law. Think of it this way: If you don't follow the commands, then you risk perdition. If that's not a law, then what are you breaking in order to face damnation?
A law carries more weight than ideals and usually has penalties. Exactly. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by purpledawn, posted 06-18-2009 6:17 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 06-19-2009 10:59 AM | | Hyroglyphx has replied | | | Message 97 by Peg, posted 06-19-2009 8:48 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 88 of 392 (512589)
06-19-2009 9:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Bailey
06-18-2009 7:35 PM
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Re: The Law
That just seems like a silly thing for a christian to say, not that I'm attempting to offend you or assume that you are one or anything, its just that, the entire magic blood ritual hocus pocus associated to variant RCC traditions that 'christians' attempt to perceive is a carry over from a corrupted Levitical tradition. Yes, I agree that the RCC is a very traditional form of Christianity that is pretty much at odds with the Pauline doctrine. But I really don't see why there is any confusion when Hebrews and Romans (the books, I mean) are explicit in levitical law not applying any longer.
Regardless, even christians must know that not a jot or a tittles' goin' anywhere 'til the ToRaH and the Prophets, who belong to no tradition, are fulfilled. Which was fulfilled during the crucifixion, no? "It is finished," said Jesus on the cross, meaning, "I am the ultimate sacrifice. My work is done here! Go about your merry may... and for Christ's sake (My sake), stop slaughtering animals!"
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Bailey, posted 06-18-2009 7:35 PM | | Bailey has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 92 of 392 (512606)
06-19-2009 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 90 by purpledawn
06-19-2009 10:59 AM
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Re: Love Your Neighbor - A Law?
For people to repent of their wrong doing, they have to know what is actually wrong behavior. If they are repenting of the wrong things and not the things they are truly accountable for, then on judgment day they will be up a creek without a paddle, to put it mildly. I think I read somewhere in the Psalms something to the effect of, if you aren't aware that you are sinning, then you aren't sinning. I think the point being that sin is willful and deliberate disobedience to God. There is that verse too about how the conscience bears testimony to the guilty thing. So from what I understand is that one can only sin so long as they are aware that it is sinful to begin with. I guess that means that if God didn't specifically instruct Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit it wouldn't have been a sin.
That is the question. What are we actually held accountable to on judgment day? Or is the reality of it that they don't really know? There is some ambiguity in the bible concerning eternal damnation. And it may not be accidental that it's vague. Perhaps there is a limit that God does not want us knowing about, because knowledge of that line would likely result in people pushing it to the limit without actually crossing it. Or maybe the whole kit and caboodle is a bunch superstitious hokum. 
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 06-19-2009 10:59 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by Perdition, posted 06-19-2009 4:27 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 96 of 392 (512668)
06-19-2009 8:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Perdition
06-19-2009 4:27 PM
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Re: Love Your Neighbor - A Law?
So, atheists will make into Heaven easier than Christians because the Christians know every time they sin, and if they forget to ask forgiveness for one of their sins, they have a problem. Whereas atheists, not thinking there's a god, never know they're sinning and are thus free to do anything and make it in. That makes me feel a lot better as an atheist  If you don't feel conflicted of conscience, then I suppose you're right. Or the bible is just a bunch of superstitions and don't worry about it anyway!
"The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money." --Margaret Thatcher--
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Perdition, posted 06-19-2009 4:27 PM | | Perdition has not replied |
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