The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment

Purpledawn, Then we each have to decide whether we think the words of Jesus are trustworthy and credible. Does He have the kind of approvedness which lends to considering His words as reliable? Do the traits of His character lean toward a foolish man who speaks wild and untrue things amiss? Or is His character win our sense of trust that He speaks knowledgeably, credibly, reliably? Does He have the approvedness as a source of truth or is He more likely to be a deceiver or self deceived?These are the issues and decisions that we are left alone with before God. And no one can make these decisions for us. I recommend honest prayer to help resolve them. I don't think that this statement is that reliable. A little infamous "quote mining" would probably not confirm your statement. First of all, Hades in the Bible is simply the whole realm of the dead. Hades is not synonomous with torment. Do you think that every single book in the New Testament must mention every single subject in the New Testament for that subject to be believable? If Second Thessalonians, for instances, doesn't mention the virgin birth of Jesus, does that mean we should discount Luke's and Matthew's mentioning of it? I don't agree. Actually I think the opposite is true. Most of the teaching on everlasting punishment comes from the mouth of Jesus. It appears to me that God reserved such a solemn subject for Christ Himself extensively. It is Jesus Christ that men must blame then, for the concept of eternal damnation, for the most part. His mouth uttered such things. If you are talking about the account of Lazarus and the rich man, it doesn't have the ring of a parable at all. It has the ring of something that Jesus knew about or witnessed.In what parable did Christ ever mention the specific name of a person? In no other parable of Christ that I can recall did He mention a person's name, i.e. Lazarus.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:03 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:03 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 10:06 AM

Ringo, It does matter whether the source of the teaching is actual history or not. Let's look at the case of Matthew 12:40,41 - "Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here" (Matt. 12:41)It it not credible to me that Jesus is teaching that fictional men will stand with actual men in the judgment. The crowd He spoke to was actual and will stand at the judgment. And with them actual men Ninivite men will stand. I find it nonsensical that Jesus would teach that fictional and non-fictional people will stand together in a divine and final judgment.So whether the reference to Ninevite men is fictional or historical is important. Of course if you believe the record of the Bible, you would believe that Ninevite repenters at Jonah's preaching were real.This means that in the mind of Jesus both Matthew 12:40,41 and Luke 11:30 should be taken as remarks about history. And this would argue for him taking the Lazarus / rich man teaching as historical also.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:36 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:37 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:38 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:39 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 12:39 PM

The points that can be derived from the teaching of Lazarus / rich man are many. This depends upon how deeply one is touched and how much of its statments and implications are regarded as serious.From one person what is imparted is that moral misuse material wealth can have bad consequences. There is no reason that we all must stop there. I do not argue that one should NOT take this lesson away from the teaching. I do argue that it is invalid to say that that is the ONLY lesson to be learned and other implications are not important.It could be easily demonstrated that given the fuller consideration of accompanying sayings of Jesus, it most certainly is a warning about punishment experienced personally after one has died. In other words, "Don't expect that you will just peacefully decay into dust. God may still be able to inflict punishment on you beyond the grave."If you ask my opinion (and even if you don't ask) I definitely include in the teaching a warning that God can punish or reward a person after they have died. There are consequences to be reaped beyond the sphere of physical life.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 01:08 PM

Other Accompanying Statements that are Warnings of After Death Retribution:

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"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (Matt. 10:28)

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"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One" (Luke 12:4,5).

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"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28,29).

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"Do not fear the things that you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tried, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

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He who has an ear let Him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:10,11)In the case of Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 Jesus is clearly teaching us that the level of fear towards God should exceed the level of fear of mortal men. And the reason for this is that their harm can only extend to us up to the point of death whereas God's retribution can extend to us beyond the point of our death. Consequently God is the one Whom we really need to fear. Physical death will furnish an escape from His punishment.In the case of John 5:28,29 all those who are physically dead in the tombs will be resurrected. Some to eternal life and others to judgment. Therefore judgment upon men from God can extend
to them AFTER physical death.In the case of Revelation 2:10,11 "faithful unto death" is a warning that some disciples will die. And the reward of not being "hurt of the second death" means that God can inflict hurt upon someone after they have suffered a previous first death.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:07 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:08 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 02:09 PM

This is what you challenged me to demonstrate. And this is what I did demonstrate: And you made no reference to the topic heading, did you?Now if you want me to argue eternal verses temporal, I can do that too. Maybe latter.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 03:47 PM

All these references concern retribution or discipline after death. That is what Ringo challenged me to demonstrate.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:01 PM

Now to the "clarified callenge": Notice that the OP does not restrict to the sayings of Jesus as recorded by the gospel writers and exclude comments of the epistles. So the whole Bible should be consulted to ascertain whether or not eternal punishment is Scriptural or whether Annhilation is what is taught.Of course Matthew 25:41 has Christ refering to "eternal fire" prepared for the devil and his angels into which the goat nations depart. And verse 46, refering to the same place, calls it "eternal punishment"Both the "fire" and the "punishment" therefore are eternal and not temporary. Annhilation is a cessation of punishiment.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:15 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 04:16 PM

me: Ringo: The parellel verse in Luke 12:,4,5 says "after killing" God is able to inflict further punishment. So the death that would occur by being thrown into the smoldering fire of the physical Gehenna is obviously not the annhilation of the whole human being. The sinner may be killed in a Gehenna trash heap smoldering outside the city. But "after killing" God has the authority to cast into Gehenna.This proves that Christ is using Gehenna to signify something more than the physical city dump where trash was burnt. After any physical killing that might result by dying in such a city dump God can do something further to punish us.Revelation 14:11 says "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name"The point here is that Revelation 14:11 can hardly be mistaken to indicate anything other than perpetual torment. This establishes a class of retribution to which Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 then could conceivably also refer.Revelation 14:11 necessarily makes the possibility of eternal torment within the scope of what Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4,5 say. Namely, after the body has been killed, the person could still suffer a torment which knows no rest forever and ever.

Purpledawn, I will have to agree with this. In considering these things I ask myself "Am I to assume that I alone am a faithful reporter and reliable witness of some significant words?"Is it conceivable that men and women whose lives were significantly impacted by the doings and words of another might have the integrity to pass on to others the things which they knew? Some skeptical types seem to start here:"Probably I would have been more reliable to pass on what Jesus really said and did, IF such a person did exist. My working assumption is that probably these recorders were not as good as I could have been. So probably they messed up the original speeches and miscomunicated what happened. And since that is probably the case we will never have any idea what this Jesus really said or did if He existed at all. Unfortunetly I was not there to do the job of recording it as it really should have been done."I have been persuaded otherwise. I think like this "Here this Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all report some words and acts of this person Jesus. I can't deny that there is a great amount of overlap, but with occasional subtle variations. And occasionally there are words and actions unique to one writer alone which are not paralleled by the others.I think that a conspiracy of these writers to concoct a fictional person and put words in His mouth is unlikely. I may not always be able to tell exactly which version of a saying was the real one. But I wager that probably each recorder was trying within the best of their ability to faithfully pass on what he knew of this person.The gospel writers have won my trust. And the one about whom they write also wins my trust. An intentional conspiracy to deceive or an unintentional occurance of self deception seems much less likely to be the case." Oh, an occasional diversion is permitted. Don't you think? You do it. The Bible's term is "the second death." I don't think this is what I see in the New Testament or in real life. If a person is given a 20 year sentence in prison and he dies after 15 years, his punishment has ceased. He actually suffered for 15 years.The phrase "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night" (Rev. 14:11) does not at all suggest cessation or rest from annhilation. And if it is possible in Revelation 14:11 it is possible that the same thing is meant in other similiar passages. As I said before "eternal life" also meaning eternal perdition may be the philosophical brain child of some people. But the New Testament keeps the two destinies quite seperated and distinct from one another.The term used for eternal perdition is utimately called "the lake of fire" or "the second death". I will. But you will have to realize that I take "the teachings of Jesus" to include the whole New Testament. He continued teaching through the Holy Spirit in the apostles Peter, Paul, John, Jude, James, etc.But if we were to restrict to recorded words attributed to the physical voice of Jesus, the equating of "the eternal fire" with "eternal punishment" (See Matthew 25:41,46) indicate endless torment.And in the same passage clearly eternal punishment is in contrast to eternal life rather than the same thing - "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46) Clearly, opposite and mutually opposing destinies are what is being conveyed.Do you disagree with this? Read it again - The possibility of misunderstanding is highly unlikely to the objective reader.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:01 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:04 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:21 PM

Faith, I very much appreciate your word of encouragement. And I seemed to remember benefitting from some posts of yours also.The questions are important. And while I usually don't like to labor on and on about eternal punishment, I'm making an exception this time because those in doubt deserve to have their serious objections addressed if we can.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 06:31 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:08 PM

Ringo, I think one has to really work hard at miscontrueing the INTENT of Luke 12:4,5.These concepts emerge from the passage:1.) There are those who can kill the body. But afterwards they cannot do anything else to harm you.2.) But God can harm you after He has killed your body. Unlike the other folks God had additional "authority" to do more to you.3.) The expression used by Jesus to discribe this post physical death harm is "cast into Gehenna"4.) Since God has this additional "authority" He is to be more feared than those who can only kill the physical body.It is extremly unlikely that Jesus meant that after you have physically died there is an additional fear that your corpse could be thrown into the smoldering Jerusalem city dump and be hurt further.
You may have your corpse thrown into Gehenna city dump. But men have the authority to do that. It doesn't require divine authority. And secondly, if death is the cessation of all possible consciousness, you would not feel a thing if you were so discarded into the burning city compose heap.Therefore I judge that "Gehenna" in this passage is used to refer to a discarding of the immaterial part of man after physical death. After killing God has the authority to trash you for your transgressions. And thusly, God deserves the greater response of fear from human beings.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:26 PM

Ringo,I acknowedge with some gratitude your comment of my knowledge of the Scripture though it turned out a left handed compliment. LOL. Not likely that this is what Jesus intended to convey.It does not take additional "authority" from God to discard a corpse into the Jerusalem city dump. And though it may be an indignity, why should a person fear what they cannot possibly be conscious of?When comedian Bob Hope was asked where he would like to be buried when he died, he replied "Surprise me!"Of course that is funny from a secular standpoint. He'll have no idea where he's buried, so the humor. Luke 12:4,5, however, is not a laughing matter but a matter of justified fear towards God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:37 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:38 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:40 PM

The perdition of the Bible is shame, regret, and torment to go along with it.Eternal punishment is, you lose, in every imaginable way. In fact the only comfort I could see from the Bible of those condemned to eternal punishment is this - perhaps the comfort of knowing that your loved ones are not in the same place.I assume this from Luke's gospel. The rich man didn't want his five brothers to end up where he was. I assume that those who perish may have as their only comfort a knowledge that someone they love is not in the same state as they have found themselves.This is important. If you have a loved one who has perished, the only comfort you may provide to them is that you get saved by Jesus Christ and don't go to the same place of punishment.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 07:51 PM

I think a better one is

Faith, Occasionally, I make mistakes in how I reply. That post was not intended to anyting you wrote. It was aimed at something you quoted.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-06-2006 08:16 PM