The significance and symbolism of the sea.

All I meant was that, in the realm of symbols, a whole constellation of ideas are pulled together in one picture. In literal terms, the ideas may not seem directly related to each other. To discuss the same range of ideas in literal terms would make for a discussion that is long, awkward, and likely overambitious. But a symbol puts it all together at once.So it is with the ocean and its implications of death, chaos, and the womb... along with many other implications.The human experience of the ocean is, as RickJB pointed out, a place of terrors. The sea is not our element. We move slowly and clumsily in it. For us to travel on the ocean is to make ourselves vulnerable to attack from below. And from our perspective these terrors are unseen. The ocean's creatures see us; we do not see them. We see only a surface that mirrors the sky. We know that under that surface life teems and depths plunge downward into an abyss the sun never reaches. But what meets our eys? Only waves, stretching to the horizon.But if the ocean conceals terrors it conceals a harvest as well. Its life can feed on us but we can also feed on it. We can draw sustenance--'make a living', we say--from reaping the ocean's bounty. The trick to this, for our species, is to bring the riches up to the surface. We must bring the sea's treasures to our world, bring them into the light.Our species has long been aware too that the ocean advances and recedes in tandem with the moon. The connections to be drawn between the cycles of the moon in the sky, the tides in the sea, and a woman's body on land were not lost on our ancestors. Neither was the role played by salt water in heralding the birth of a child.So we come to the state of chaos--the dark, the undifferentiated. If the sea appears to our eyes as a featureless surface, hiding more than it reveals, so does death. If the sea can also produce life and sustenance, so can womanhood. Yet the womb, too, is a place where all is undifferentiated. In the womb we floated in our own dark ocean, knowing nothing of ourselves or others as distinct individuals. We had little to go on sensorily and no words, or even mental categories, with which to organize our experiences. Only after we were born did our consciousness literally begin to see the light and begin to categorize and point and label: this is this, that is that. The sea is no longer our natural element. But it was once. For all of us.These are universal, primal experiences. We do not always take account of the way we ascribe clusters of meaning to one picture but the clusters do take account of us. Our ability to describe the ocean with the rational part of our minds, to analyze its chemical content and discuss its weather patterns, does not dispel the cluster of ideas that gather around it in the intuitive part of our minds.Storytellers and artists through the centuries have always been savvy to this. It is their business to be. Their task is to move us. The best storytellers know that a whole range of responses are activated in us when certain images are evoked. They know that if they can present these images well, present them vividly, we cannot remain indifferent.So it is with the sea. We pay attention when we encounter a story about men pursuing a white whale or white shark, about a gangster who dreams of a betrayer as a talking fish, about a sea creature that swallows a prophet only to cough him up again, or about a young woman with a body that is still half-fish yearning to walk and run and spend all day in the sun.Symbols always suggest a constellation of things. You can talk about symbols, bring aspects of them to light, but you can never totally catalogue and explain a symbol. That is what makes it a symbol. Its inexhaustibility is what gives it power.This is why last year's oceanography textbook is old while Homer is new this morning.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : chaos repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

what language would that be? yiddish? ladino? it's really tricky to explain how this works to someone not familiar with it. we're basically forced to put the passive verbs in, in translation. but hebrew (and other semitic languages) simply don't need them. no one who understands the language would read "imanuel" to mean the person is god incarnate, but it can be difficult to explain why, and the senses and implications of the word. so when you translate, you have to try to choose which connotations correlated best -- and inserting the "is" in english seems to work better. yes, i agree. but even reading in english, some understanding of hebrew helps with the context, for understanding expression and idioms. you just can't know what the text means without that context.the other thing i'm amazed with is exactly how much hebrew has carried over into english (and vice-versa). the kjv was a very influential document in modern english's formative years, and its literal translations of hebrew idioms occasionally carried over. and with modern hebrew, english is a major influence.

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yes, but they're not really pointless, are they? i prefer to make an attempt to cut through all of the anachronistic social context and assumptions, reading the text as free from bias as i possibly and humanly can. it causes problems for some people.did you see origen's reaction when i questioned his reading of the bible? he proposed that finding snakes with legs doesn't validate evolution, but the genesis 3 story. because everyone knows the serpent in genesis 3 had legs at the beginning of the story, and didn't at the end. ...the problem is that it doesn't actually say that at all. it never once says that the serpent had legs. it's a reasonable inference, but so are a few other possibilities.that's just the kind of subjectiveness and assumption we read the bible with. it's such an integral part of our western cultural narrative that it's hard to separate our oral traditions with the ones actually recorded in the text. i think that debate is still going on. as it is, christians reject a fair portion of the old testament, and simply ignore most other parts. with good reason, too. things don't line up all that well.Edited by arachnophilia, : typos

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Maltese. You know, the place mentioned in Acts 27. I didn't want to expand on this for fear of dragging the thread off-topic, but really there's no way in which "Alla maghna" (pronounced "alla ma-na", the gh is the Arabic 'ain) can be construed to mean that it refers to [the] God [who is] with us. I was going to ask you if the same applies to the Hebrew, but you've already answered.Om the other hand, "Maghna hu Alla" with an unsounded h, "with us is God!", makes a delightful name for any person.

Hmm... I can understand the ocean=chaos symbolism intellectually, but I can't seem to "feel" the connection.I'm a prairie boy. I never saw the ocean till I was thirty-five, though I've seen my share of (fairly small) lakes.But I love the ocean. I could live on a boat. I've never been seasick.
I can't swim an inch, but I've never worn a life-jacket.Terrors? **shrug**

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*sigh*You still have not explained, Rob, how you view sea symbolism working in the story of Jonah. All you did was quote an off-site plot synopsis:

quote:

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one mans quest to hide from God amongst the sea and by the grace of God a great fish swallowed him and brought him back to the land so that he could fulfil God's purpose.

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No discussion of symbolism appears in this.The odd thing is that there was nothing inherently challenging about the question. You had just opened a thread on sea symbolism. I asked you how you viewed such symbolism operating in the book of Jonah.You'd think a would-be Bible interpreter who opens a subject would welcome an invitation, right out of the gate, to share more of his thoughts. Especially about a text as quintessentially on-the-topic as Jonah.Your reaction--avoidance, sarcasm, complaints of persecution, defensive off-topic rants, false claims that you already addressed the question, unsupported pejorative comments about my character, and otherwise flopping about like a hooked puffer on a pier--has been strange, to say the least. I prefer my questions to be answered.But never mind. The distress my question caused you is a matter of record. Now that I know you feel persecuted, no good reason exists to torment you further. I can always explore this subject with more stalwart souls who are interested.You're off the hook.__Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Lots of people on this island share your enthusiasm. The history of people living off the sea here stretches further back than... well, further back than YECs say the planet has been here!Long familiarity with the ocean brings plenty of awareness of its hazards, though, even among people who can't imagine living any other way. A long history of living off the ocean goes hand-in-hand with a long history of praying for safety on it.[AbE:] The most prayed-to deity in Taiwan is not Guan Yin, though the Compassionate One is hugely popular. It's Matsu, Goddess of the Sea.__Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added detail.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

I suppose so, but praying for safety on land has a long history too.I just don't have a feel for how the terrors of the sea are different. The symbolism seems rather contrived to me.

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Well, land symbolism is another thread. But there are many parallels.One storyteller who exploited the parallels in interesting ways was Frank Herbert, author of the Dune series. He describes a dry planet with no oceans. But the vast deserts tend to do the same work--symbolically and ecologically--that earth's oceans do.__

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Oh, gosh, sorry. I hope my sentence didn't sound rude. 'Pointless' wasn't a good word...more that the arguments seem ludicrus to us now because we feel we already 'know' what the Bible says. I think it is safe to bet as you said, that we have a better mental picture of bibilical concepts than we do of textual knowledge (as a society).

oh no, don't worry, i didn't read it as rude, just an explanation of why people are often perplexed that i "don't see" certain things.

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Rick, first... thank you for being honest.You can believe anything you want. Or not believe anything you want. I cannot challenge your beliefs. I can only decide if they are reasonable to me. You must decide what is reasonable for yourself.RickJB writes:That's what naturalism forces us to do. It's an absolute worldview.When I followed the naturalistic philosophy to it's logical conclusion, I realized that what I was really saying, was that death is absolute, and life is relative; that life is an annomoly, and even a disease.That's why you will see NosyNed and others wringing their hands that there are so many of us. We exploit the resouces. They criticize our sins, yet justify them at the same time with their own naturalism. It's always someone elses sin that is the problem.But at least we dunderhead Christians are not the only one's who believe in absolutes. We have some company, though not generally friendly to us.RickJB writes: You already know why. RickJB writes: You have that right Rick... I am not denying you that.But is that respectable intellectually?I found for myself that naturalism is intellectually incoherent.With naturalism, it's not that we can't be good, it's just that there is no compelling reason to be good. And when naturalism is taken to it's logical conclusion, the only real good we can do is commit suicide.It is in that state of desparation, that one can finally see that it is worth the risk that God may be there...When we genuinely ask and seek, He is there waiting to catch us and deliver us from the sea of madness.And the pressure is intense... the new birth into life, and out of death, is painful and laborious emotionaly, because we have been programmed to deny weakness and project control.Are we in control? Not even a naturalist would say yes!Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Hey Spidey, please reread your comment here:You're right, we cannot make that leap can we?How do we step outside of ourselves to see everything from a wholly 'other' perspective?How do we transcend this trap that we are in? How do we come out of the sea if we are part of the sea?I have tried very hard to explain this to Nosy and jar in another thread (knowledge / Christianity...). I have not yet got a reaction other than jar yawning and dismissing it as nonsense (you know how he is).I am going to go into much more detail here. It is going to sound preachy, but I believe it is true, then how can I not profess it? I would be a liar. So if you must think it is just delusion, or if it is just the one thing you are not willing to entertain, forgive me.I think for many, that is the case... They want the power that comes with the answers, but they have predetermined what that answer must be. But that is exactly the reason they cannot have it. Power like that is not given by a good God to people who will use it to exalt themselves instead of the truth (which is Jesus).No-one calls the teaching of math preaching, but that is what it is... I am professing what I believe is true, and only wish to explain very systematically (like a math teacher) why I believe that.Jesus told us what to do... and I think the problem is that we grow up in these institutions and just accept it as true, but without ever understanding what it is really all about.Then we get older, and the trials come. We are bombarded with other information and realize that the portions we thought were solid were actually almost totally void of real meat.And along the way the churches have lost it too.What have they lost?The fact that it never was about beliefs. It was never about rituals and religion. Jesus condemned all of that when He challenged the Pharisees.He told them that they thought they knew God, because they had [essentially memorized] a bunch of words. That they professed sight and knowledge, but were blind guides. That they turned men into twice as much a son of hell as themselves. He called them a brood of vipers who take away the keys to knowledge. That they themselves had not entered, and they now hinder those who seek to find the life gate.They condemn others and proclaim themselves righteous. They beat up people over legalistic minutia. They are the worst of sinners, but will never admit to sin.It was never about that.... EVER!It was about knowing God as intimately as you know your wife, Only we are now the bride (in the hierarchichal sense) submitting to our bridegroom who is Christ. He whispers the commands and we follow Him in sincere and respectful submission to His kindness (Yes, in the Bible husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loves the church... in other words be willing to die for them).And that is not some interpretation of scripture, it is what Jesus came to proclaim!The good news, is that we do not have to accept that we cannot know. We do not have to follow rules set by men in order to be labeled worthy. That we can actually meet God ourselves. We can make the close encounter of the 1st kind (or is it third? I forget).That is the Gospel Arachnophilia, and you and I were cheated of that in our dead congregations. It has been lost by so many...And that is the way we can transcend our own beliefs (which are relative). The answer is not relativism, but revelation.There are no magic words. The words mean nothing unless we mean it in our heart of hearts. There is not faking it. It is a place of brokeness. A humble cry to the one who is waiting for the right attitude in us to signal our conversion.When we are so desparate to have the answer, that we are willing to give up all control of our own life, without any restrictions on what God will ask of us, and admit that the only thing that has kept us from Him was the sin we do not want to give up, and we ask Him to help us change, he will come running to you and without shame give you the keys to heaven. Thank Him for dying for your sins to make that possible.You don't even have to say it, just think it and mean it. Tell Jesus we will accept Him, and want to know Him.It's the most humbling and foolish thing a man can do, and I sometimes think that is why it's so powerful. Our willingness to let God be God for the first time if He will just help us. And oh boy will He!You'll see so much you'll wish you hadn't. Your cup will overflow.You will see for the first time. You will see the matrix (if you'll pardon the crude analogy) for yourself and know the truth. You will stand outside of yourself and the Bible will become living and breathing and you will see Him... God; Father/Son/And Spirit.That is Christiantiy! It is not a belief, it is reality unveiled before your eyes.That's the good news Jesus came to give...John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."It's about honesty right down to the bottom of our soul.John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.There is so much more, but here's a good clincher...Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Would you give your whole life which consists of ignorance and confusion, in exchange for literally everything?What is there to lose?And notice that He clearly said that they would see the Son coming in His Kingdom... Well, did you think I was lying or deluded when I told you I saw Him and that He gives me revelation just as He did to all the other untold millions, not to mention John.Or is Jesus and the rest of us lying so that we can be mocked and beaten and despised for the fun of it?Do you know why Christians are so stubborn and willing to be mocked and keep coming back no matter how fierce the resistance?It is because we are willing to do almost anything to share the most incredible news that can be!Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.In Him we obtain the Spirit (the lens) by which we can see reality in all it's complexity. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

A very thoughtful, perceptive, and candid comment, if I say so myself.And it's not mine.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

What can I say really??? ooops!It is obvious I am not God huh?2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.