The significance and symbolism of the sea.

Well, what I was saying before is that since the word 'hell' kind of smothered the distinction between a temporary holding place and the eternal hell that we typically call to mind, in the early church other words like Purgatory, or limbo, came to mean 'a holding place for the immaterial part of man's being'. Hence 'purgatory' IS Biblical and not an embellishment, just a word progression from sheol to Hades to purgatory, with 'hell' being the final destination. I think the case I would make is that reformation made it impossible to tell with which part of God's people the Spirit now resides I know you will want to say 'all of them', but well, since none of them can agree, then the Spirit can't be making contradictory revelations all over the world, can He? There can only be one truth. See what I mean? Who are the sent ones? And why do they all point to God speaking something different?This is not very OT jaywill, so no need to respond, just some thoughts.

Scotness writes: Well then, you have some assuptions that you do follow right? In all candor, are you willing to compromise on those assumptions? I was only noticing that the reference to 'the bride' in both the Old and New Testaments was one of the most common analogies used to explain the relationship between God with the nation of Israel, and Christ with His church. Not only is it not a stretch... I am suprised that I have not heard it referenced before now with respect to Revelation 21. It has, as I have found, but deserves far more attention in my opinion. That is why I undertook the thread.Please don't think that these following verses are the only references I can provide. They are only for examples. I bet Jaywill could fill a couple pages worth of verses that corrospond. In fact I invite that...Isaiah 62:5 As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you.And from the lips of Jesus Himself:Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior.This last one I like because it shows that the analogy is just that, an analogy! Otherwise, it is kind of a wierd concept to get a hold on.

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Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Psss...can you name the source of this quote? Answer...St Augustine, in a letter to the heretic Faustus AD 400.St Jerome ,several years prior, had identified the new Jerusalem with a spiritual city.

Well, we agree on much more than you might think. I don't even know where to begin... But one must start somewhere. I just mean that some of your conclusions I do not find complete. It's not so much that you're wrong, I just don't think you have yet seen the connections I am trying to illustrate. I'll try to explain as I move along here. You know sir... as an aside, this is an excellent point. One I have not understood in terms of practice much at all (I'm sure none of you noticed ). We cannot change minds can we? And that is the difficult part... To present the information in a way that gives the hearer an opportunity to make the extensions themselves. That is a skill that I lack! I have become terminally prophetic in my tone. I can't help it! My sincere apologies...Just know that I don't expect or advise anyone to take anything at face value. Information must make sense for us to accept it. But we should keep in mind our own duplicity. A favorite philospher of mine said, 'In any interplay or exchange between information and a person, the first test is not the veracity of the information, but the honesty of the person receiving it. I concur... just checking! Let me put it this way... I think Adam and Eve would have understood it immediately, whereas we must struggle and study because of the cognitive dissonance the Bible poses for us in our time.In this tage, all of the assumptions of the enlightenment, the renaissance, modernity, and all history are below the surface of our thinking and have become in many cases subconscious. It is clear to me as I study, that we have lost the ability to even question these assumptions. Everybody just knows they're true even though most of us have never heard of these men. So we move on into the abyss, building a Tower of Babel. And it is striking that these same people will tell you that reality is relative, even though their assumptions are implicitely absolute.Parenthetically:All of that is encrusted in our culture... The rationalty of Descartes, the skepticism of Kant, the empericism of Hume, and the despair of Nietzche. Were these men right? I have found them to be severely lacking as I learn more. Their blatent contradictions fly off into the future...As the proffessor character in the Chronicles of Narnia said, 'What do they teach these kids today?'I have some idea of the answer to that question having been schooled right here in the post-modern West. Yes but man has fallen. He has fallen from his Godly stature and become a beast. And he acts like a beast. I don't have to prove it, just read the 'morning news'... or more to the point, look more closely in the mirror. Have you ever argued with yourself? You know... the typical depiction of a man with a dilemma; an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. And who is in the middle? Which one is me?The leviathan is me also, as well as the devil on the one side. We talk of split personalities... try three (triune). And I ask you of the three, who is in control? According to the Bible it is the beast. Our light (angel/Spirit) has almost gone out.That's the way I'm looking at this... Yes, I understand, and to an extent I think you are right! That is what makes it all the more incredible. The author of Job did not neccesarily know anything about the spiritual significance of the monster. And this is important... I think he did. But let's assume that he did not. Even still, the spiritual connection is clear. And that is what gives tremendous credence to some of these depictions of beast rising out of the sea in Daniel and elsewhere. That God, by His sovereignty could tie these together even without the understanding of the author being necessary. But I maintain that they did understand. These men were considered prophets for a reason Arachnophilia. And the protection (without peer) of the canon of scripture is becoming readily appearent to me... the consistency is supernatural when you finally see it. i would also give my life to preserve it. In fact, I am doing so right now. Not out of blind allegiance, but out of seeing faith. It simply cannot be coincidence! If it is, or if it is contrived, it is the most masterfully orchestrated collection of deception I have seen. And I've seen my fair share of movies and books! I think I adequately explained above, how the same concept can manifest itself in different dimensions of being. Everything has everything to do with everything. That's why we call it that. This idea that science is one thing, and religion another etc, is the fault of Emanuel Kant et al. When we seek to understand something, we do not eliminate resources for information, we seek total context. But not if your a materialist like Hume. Do you see how these men lied to us?The problem is not intellectual, but moral. These men had alterior motives, and their philosophies were easily accepted by a duplicitous society of beasts, just looking for an excuse to keep their delicious sin.2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. Here is a perfect example of the consistency of scripture. With stories that were unrelated at the time being fused by the marvelous omnipotence of divine wisdom so that you and I could find Him.Did the churning of the waters destroy the Ark? No, because God Himself in a very overlooked detail of the story sealed the door of Noah's ark. And in the same manner, the Spirit of the 'born again' is sealed and given the zeal and vision to wheather the storms of doubt. Not to mention that the Ark in Genesis, represents the vessel (or temple) of the Holy spirt (the body) in the Gospels. Remember how Jesus rebuked the tempest on the sea of Galalie? Giving comfort, and Himself as food for sustanence? Spiritually rich material Arachnophilia.Psalm 104:25 There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number-- living things both large and small. 26 There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there. 27 These all look to you to give them their food at the proper time. 28 When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things.More coincidence? The whole Bible is symbolic Arachnophilia. Symbolic of a literal reality that already exists eternally and always did! The whole of history is one mans story of how He created the universe for Himself to share with his creation. And we can go there if we follow him.It's a lot better news than believing that this sea of confusion is as good as it's gonna get! I'm not trying to preach. It's just that to illustrate it all, I cannot leave any part out!You have a good working mind, decide for yourself.

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Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Not sure what you mean. I am the source of this quote.Do you mean:???If so, here is what I found: Page not found – Yeshuas KingdomAlso, I have had some very pleasant and productive corrospondance with the author of the site in the last several days. Well, I don't know if I have the credentials to confirm or refute St. Jerome... but he's right IMHO

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Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

No, sorry, the quote was in the original post, which I forgot to copy, so I trust you won't mind scrolling up to see it. Augustine in his 'City of God' talks extensively of the meaning of Rev 21. If you will recall Jerome is responsible for the canon of the Bible whcih was used most often up unto the Reformation. I don't know if even he had the credentials to refute or confirm his position, since his opinion of the meaning of 'New Jerusalem' evolved over the years and eventually he saw it as being both a spiritual and a physical city (Jerusalem as a Holy City was being rebuilt in his day). We have taken this idea and now see both the church militant (on earth) and the church triumphant (in Heaven) as being part of the Bride of Christ. As you may know, the Catholics include also the church expectant, those souls still trapped in Hades (purgatory) which await the spiritual union with their spouse.ABE; Meant to ask if you had anywhere incorporated the gospel(I think there are two stories) of Jesus walking upon the water? Maybe in conjunction with Job 9:8? Maybe a bit of a stretch, but kinda makes sense if you think of how Peter, as the head of the church militant, has in this sense 'trampled death' along with Jesus. A nice symbolism anyway.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Seems like Augustine beat your friend to the punch.

Good stuff Anastasia!

Neither me, nor my friend mind in the least. As he said in one of our exchanges, 'I have no copywrite on my site.'C.S. Lewis said, 'There are no original thinkers. We're all plagiarizing to one extent or another.' (paraphrased)Even Augustine and Jerome were only recognizing an existing pattern.But that is precisely why the Bible is true! No mere man gets the credit!Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

No, but I knew I was fond of you for a reason. Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.John 6:19 When they had rowed three or three and a half miles, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified.I'm sure it's just another of those pesky coincidences.You and Arachnophilia can handle the original language test.Wow! Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

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Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Well, it was not until I thought about this hymn, very beautiful when sung, but much darker than what we are used to in wording...that I realized the early church seemed to be familiar with some of these apocolyptic themes, and in that sense I feel we have lost something along the way as well in the way of traditional symbolism. That is what I was attempting to tell jaywill...the reformation in doing away with much of the 'non-biblical' superstitions of catholicism may have inadvertantly lost some wheat with the chaff i.e., traditional 'knowledge'.
It is just my pet theory of the moment though, but it also calls to mind the incident during the council of Nicea when they were forced to admit that the heretic Arian could just as easily disprove the Trinity using only the Bible as they could prove it. They ultimately had to use extra-biblical reasoning.

I don't know as much of the history as you. Did the canon change durring the reformation?

I can easily see this as happening. And for the record, remember I told you I am not a Catholic, or 'Foursquare', Bapbtist etc... I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. One of my favorite theolgians was Catholic.That's why I get so pertrubed when labeled a fundamentalist. What does that mean? Are they making a fundamental accusation? Anyway, I don't know that many ever contended that the reformation was entirely necessary. Certainly there was plenty of mistakes to go round the table. I know that my pastor has said that we are still recovering things lost in terms of understanding.Back to the topic...

There is another illusion to Jesus walking on water, possibly prior to the Loaves and the Fishes, where they wondered how Jesus had reached the land as there was no boat empty...anyway, as to coincidences, I do like the symbolism especially of Peter relying on Jesus and faith to walk upon the waves, and not his own power, just as the church does now. It is interesting to know the original language and intentions, but again if you look to the church fathers you will find that Thomas Aquinas (messenjah of one started a thread on it but never finished) had proposed 4 or 5 different ways of reading scripture, with very complicated names, but boil down to the fact that scripture has MANY meanings both in the context and in the whole scheme of things, for example, a prophecy may be fulfilled in the story itself, and yet be awaiting a spiritual fulfillment which is larger than history.

I am glad you brought that up... I have never been able to put that whole notion into words. I was just making a poor attempt to point that out to Arachnophilia a few posts ago...Do you know? Was it Augustines position that they were all correct ways to study, with the caviat that no one or two will give the full context? Do you see where I am going?In other words, we take a different way of looking at scripture and see that a given story is literally true in more than one sense!That is one of the things that makes it all more incredible and undeniably supernatural. The literal truth is multidimensional.And it all ties into the concept of the Trinity as well. The three personal God. The need to bring all of the disciplines into focus and harmony reflects the absolute, objective, and Holy nature of God!The heavens and earth declare His glory... The universe with it's three spacial dimensions and so on...It's as if the answer were there the whole time, and it was! All in that mysterious and powerful concept of the Trinity. Not something you'd expect four fishermen to invent.