Bible Interpretation and History

No. Yes. Alexander Hislop's classic book "The Two Babylons" elaborated on that theme in the 19th century. Many of the Brethren writers informed us of this mixture hundreds of years ago.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:6 was written considerably before any Council of Nicea. In that passage the prophets writes that the human child born shall be called "The Mighty God". So here we have a teaching of a born child Who is "The Mighty God". And "The Mighty God" is Jehovah - "The Mighty One, God, Jehovah, hath spoken" (Psalm 50:1 ASV 1901)Isaiah 9:6 also teaches that the son given shall be called "The Father of Eternity". So we have in this prophecy a born child who is the Mighty God Jehovah and a Son given Who is the Father of Eternity. The Father of eternity or Everlasting Father is Jehovah God - "For You are our Father ... You, Jehovah, are our Father; Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name" (Isa. 63:16)The prophet Isaiah did not counsult with the Council of Nicea which occured well over half a dozen centries latter.Neither did the prophet Zechariah consult with the Nicean Council when he wrote of Jehovah of hosts -the sender, sending Jehovah of hosts - the onw being sent. This amounts to God as both the Sender and the One Sent. God sending Himself in a mysterious way:ZECHARIAH 2:8-11"For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8)

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For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me. (v.9)

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Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah. (v.10)

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And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)In this passage the One sending is Jehovah of hosts. And the One being sent by the Sender is also Jehovah of hosts. Jehovah of hosts the speaker is also the one sent by Jehovah of hosts the sender. This is a marvelous window into the mysterious triune nature of God in the Old Testament. And it is well before the term "Trinity" was coined in defense of critics attacked the full incarnation of God in the man Jesus Christ.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-02-2006 02:15 AM

Plenty of us call Him the Mighty God. Just because you don't doesn't mean that no one has. Reading the verses it is clear that Jehovah of hosts is the sender and the sent one.The Trinity is not polyttheistic in your belief not in mine.

In the experience of many of us Jesus has in fact been a Mighty God. So it is true in the prophecy and in the experience of the belivers. The prophecy is talking about Jesus who is God incarnate as a man.You have unbelief in this matter. Sometimes the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah are used interchangeably. Since a Angel is strictly a messenger it is appropriate that Jehovah of hosts being sent by Jehovah of hosts functions as a Messenger, and Angel of Jehovah.I wrote a typo here: I meant this: Your response: Where did I write that God was three with one substance? Perhaps you should take that complaint to those who made that statement.Isaiah 9:6 attributes the first name to this mysterious God as Wonderful. That means to me full of wonder. Anything full of wonder is not easy to explain.Hebrew scholar Franz Delitzsch writes concerning this word: The Hebrew word pehleh, translated "Wonderful" in Isaiah 9:6 carries such meanings as:something unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to understand,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensibleThe root word's meaning is clearly illustrated in the following passages:"Is anything TOO HARD for the Lord?" (Genesis 18:14); "Such knowledge is TOO WONDERFUL for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it" (Psalm 139:6); "But the angel of the Lord said to him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?" (Judges 13:18)That the child born is the Mighty God and the Son given is the Father of Eternity is knowledge too high for me. I cannot attain to it. And nothing is too hard for God. He is thoroughly and throughout Wonderful.Though the Triune God is Wonderful and beyond our ability to explain He is nevertheless "unto us" for our enjoyment and participation. We may enjoy His presence and His salvation for He is unto us. We may experience the Triune God without being fully able to explain the Trinity. We may just praise Him and call Him Wonderful!.The Trinity is not for man to have a doctrinal formula for its own sake. The Trinity is for man's enjoyment and experience of God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-02-2006 11:39 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-02-2006 11:40 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-02-2006 11:42 PM

Ramoss, We are convinced of the veracity of Isaiah 9:6 as we have interpreted it because of the testimony of the man Jesus of Nazareth. His life, death, and resurrection appear to us as indications that this was indeed a born child who was the Mighty God Jehovah and a Son given Who was the embodiment of the Father of Eternity. The approvedness of His testimony convinces us that the divine utterance of Isaiah 9:6 surely concerned Him.God raised up the Jews as His perculiar people also for the purpose that He could bless the nations as He told Abraham:" ... and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 12:3b ASV 1901)It is an unfortune thing when some object to God extending His blessing to the nations because they want to lock it all up within the Jewish culture, contrary to God's plan.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-03-2006 07:32 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-03-2006 07:33 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 05-03-2006 07:37 AM

I preface my comments here by repeating that the Trinity is for man's experience and enjoyment of the divine God. Logical debates on the theoligical formula for doctrinal purposes alone are endless and quickly can become vain.I refered to Isaiah 9:6 and your wrote: I think Isaiah 9:6 is pertinent to this statement: The fact is that the one divine Father is identified with the "son ... given". And the one divine Mighty God is identified as the "child ... born". You said "every single time" the one God is always said to be the Father. Isaiah 9:6 is a time in Scripture where the one God is said to be a born child and the one Father is said to be the son given.The brothers at Nicea only attempted to defend the mysterious revelation of God in the Scripture for ideas which tried to negate Christ's deity, as in the Arian heresy of Christ's incomplete divinity. I believe similiarly that a number of times the Angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament refers to Christ before His incarnation. I am quite aware of those verses. My attitude is to simply say Amen to whatever the word of God says. I don't think it is my responsibility to reconcile those statements about God all the time. It is enough that God has testified both to me.The Lord Jesus is also the Holy Spirit - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) So there is distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus but there is no seperation. One lives within the Other. And there is mutual coinherance between the Three of the Godhead.Again the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit who dispenses life - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) He came that we might have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10) But ultimately this life is simply Himself dispensed into man as "a life giving Spirit" which He became.There is also distinction between the Father and the Son. But there is no seperation. Each lives within the Other:"Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father?" (John 14:8,9)We must respect that this recollection of the Apostle John is written along with His recollection of the saying " ... the only true God, and Him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3). I don't want to use one passage to deny the varacity of the other in either direction. I want to embrace both passages as the truth of God even though I cannot explain how both could be true.There is distinction among the Three of the Trinity. But there seems to be no seperation. Philip asked to be shown the Father and Jesus says "and you have not known ... Me". The Apostle John did not have to record that. Perhaps we might think Christian theology would have been simplier if he had just left that out. But he did include it. And it makes sense in light of the ancient prophecy that the Son given would also be the Everlasting Father.So I have no problem with your references to John 17:3 or 1 Cor. 8:6. I really don't have any complaint against your using those verses to make your point. But I also want to equally embrace 1 Cor. 15:45 and 2 Cor. 3:17 and John 14:8,9. I can only say that our Triune God is WonderfulI believe that God is a Trinity for His purpose of dispensing Himself into man. He is not a static Trinity as an object of objective worship. He is a dynamic Trinity for impartation and dispensing of what He is into man.I am not defending a static Trinity formula for our objective worship. I am for the dispensing of God's life and nature into man in His economical operation as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are God. Each are eternal. And Each lives within the other. And They are one God.This is for our participation in the Divine Life and enjoyment of the Divine Being.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-03-2006 01:19 PM

I think this is broad brush generalization. I recall quite a lot of discussion about the Trinity which made no particular reference to Hebrew writings. There has been so much written on the subject how can you make such a generalization?If you want to say this or that particular treatment of the subject has some faulty intepretation of Hebrew writtings, I could take that statement more seriously. Some treatments of the subject do amount to three seperate Gods. This is called tritheism. And some treatments on the opposite extreme amount to modalism. As I said before the debates on this are really endless. For centries people have argued and traded accusations and labels.You'll probably find me reluctant to get into a protracted debate with you trying to defend against the label of polytheism. I have one and only one God Who is the Triune God. I think that statement is sufficient to stand. But I doubt that you will be appeased with it. I suspect you will want to prove that I have many gods. But I believe that there is only one God and not three.And to fully explain how God can be three and one is too difficult a task for me to do. I think it is too difficult a task for any human being to do. You will find that I will simply refer you to what the Bible says in many places as the source of my faith. To some the existence of God period is confusing.The concept of a Creator or the loving heavenly Father is confusing. Others find incarnation confusing. Others find a perfect and sinless human living of Jesus confusing. Some find that believing that Jesus is more than a mere prophet, is very confusing.Redemption confuses some people. Resurrection confuses some other people. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a source of confusion to others. The living of the Christian life is very confusing to some other people. The second coming, the kingdom, eternal life, forgivenenss, sanctification, conformation, glorification, the nature and building of the church, etc. are also subjects which some find helpful and others protest as not helpful because they are confusing.As long as your love for Christ is growing and your experience of His grace is encreasing, I would not worry about the confusion of biblical statements difficult to reconcile. I would let the Holy Spirit more and more renew and transform my mind and thinking. Then through maturity of spiritual growth what seems confusing will be a source of praise and peace.This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-04-2006 06:15 PM