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Author Topic:   Woese's progenote hypothesis
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 194 (339785)
08-13-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ramoss
08-12-2006 6:41 PM


Re: Multiple abiogenetic events
What you seem to not understand is that what the Miller/Ulrey experiment was trying to do. They were trying to show that complex organic chemicals can occur naturally, without life being present.Not only did they succeed, but we have refined the experiments for 50 years after their initial experiment. You are acting as if the Miller/Ulrey experiment was the beinging and ending of that line of inquiry.. it isn't.
The sole purpose of the inquiry was to solve the seemingly insoluble in purely materialistic terms. Consider what other applicable purpose it could have possibly served? And to be sure that the study was out of morbid interest to supplant the need and role of an Intelligence beyond us through some capricious force:
http://www.chem.duke.edu/...uise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html
Here was the problem with the experiment. The entire premise of the inquiry was to prove that life could have originated at random via a few simple compounds in a prebiotic soup, of sorts. (Pay no mind where even the simple chemicals came from). The claim was that miller had succesfully synethized proteins, such as adenine and guanine, but that he failed to produce cytosine and thymine. What's the first problem? Neither of those four bases are even proteins. Those are the four base pairs of a DNA molecule. So what did Miller actually produce and how did he produce it? Miller took what he thought must have been earth's early conditions, which in itself, is pure, unadulterated conjecture. He assumed that the earth's atmosphere was composed of very high concentrations of methane, ammonia, hydrogen, etc. From this volatile mixture, he used a spark ignition in attempt to make a combination that would allow life to come from non-life. What Dr. Miller atually created ws 85% tar, 3% carboxylic acid, and 12% non-living amino acids.
What does it take to arrive at just one protein? It takes 20 specific amino acids, placed in sequential order just to produce one protein. This means that Miller just took a wild guess as to what earth's atmosphere was actually comprised of and assumed that his pristine laboratory must have resembled those conditions. I mean, with his mixture, we could assume that a dirty diaper is a breeding ground for a prebiotic mixture, not just the propagation of bacteria. But perhaps my wording of failure was a bit execessive. It was a success on one level. Where as Louis Pastuer was officially credited with demonstrably proving that abiogenesis is impossible, perhaps it was Miller that sealed the deal once and for all. In those regards, the experiment was a success.

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ramoss, posted 08-12-2006 6:41 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2006 12:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 194 (339798)
08-13-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by crashfrog
08-13-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Multiple abiogenetic events
Oh, for God's sake. Both Miller and Urey were almost certainly theists. What possible interest would they have in trying to disprove the god of both their religions?
Almost certainly theists? How have you deduced that from that their studies? What purpose does it serve to figure out how life could have originated at random and also believe in a Creator. A Creator needs 'create' in order to be a Creator. I think you're bright enough to realize that.
You need to get over these juvenile atheist conspiracy theories. Christians and other theists are overwhelmingly involved in research in evolutionary biology and biochemistry. The idea that all this science is just an atheist plot to disprove God is idiotic.
Crash, what other premise did it serve? What medicinal value is there in their study? What philanthropy could possibly have derived from the experiment? You claim that I'm spewing some conspiratorial rant but the premsie is quite clear. You tell me what purpose it served and we'll go from there.
Absolutely 100% false, as you've been repeatedly told. The purpose of the experiment was to establish whether or not amino acids could form under specific inorganic conditions.
LOL! Yeah, to show that life could have originated at random. Everyone knows this except you. Here's an interview with Miller. As you'll clearly see, he is defending the position that the inquiry is in support of abiogenesis. Closing your eyes won't make the monster disappear.
Just a moment...
When you rebut a claim that your opponent didn't make, that you just made up yourself, that's called "arguing a stawman." That's exactly what you've done here. The purpose of the experiment was absolutely not what you describe, which is abundantly obvious if you actually look up the experiment you're talking about.
Then tell me what purpose it served and why? Even in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
It takes 20 specific amino acids, placed in sequential order just to produce one protein.
Almost entirely incorrect. It's entirely possible to construct functional proteins from as few as 8 different aminos, and possibly even less. Certainly 20 aminos are employed by today's complex life, but there's no reason that all 20 are required right from the beginning.
8 aminos? Then why do we see across the board with all organisms containing 20 amino's per protein, per molecule? Show me functional proteins with as little as 8 amino's , which amino's are they, and how have you come to such a radical conclusion?

“If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2006 12:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by NosyNed, posted 08-13-2006 1:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 185 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2006 3:41 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 186 by RickJB, posted 08-14-2006 3:52 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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