Meaning of Daniel 8:13-14 ?

Hello again.When reading the King James Version of the Bible, I notice that some words have been added - the ones in brackets.
An example is Daniel 8:13-14I ask - Why have words been added that have changed the meaning and flow of the sentence ?Here is the verse without the added {English} words. It appears not to read quite right, but its not because I have removed the 'added' English words - its because the original translation by the Old English scribes was not entirely correct - as they appear not to use the original meanings of some of the Hebrew words.Here is a literal translation by Young: Even in 1898 he had to 'add' words to try to make it read fluently.Let's check Strong's Concordance (the written version, not the new amended electronic versions).
Hebrew word 2377 "vision" means 'a sightment' or sighting.
Word 8548 "daily" means 'continuance which means 'duration.
Word 6588 "transgression" means 'a religious revolt'.
Word 8074 "desolation" means 'to stun, stupefy, and to amaze'.
Word 5414 "to give" means 'to make'.
Word 6944 "sanctuary" means 'holy'.
Word 6635 "host" means 'a mass of persons'.
Word 4823 "trodden under foot" means 'abasement' which means 'to be humiliated'.
Word 6663 "cleansed" means 'to make right in a moral and forensic sense'.In Chart form this looks like:
How long the
2377 . vision . = sightment - sighting
8548 . daily . = continuance - duration
6588 . transgression . = a religious revolt
8074 . desolation . = to stun, stupefy, amaze
5414 . to give both . = to make both
6944 . sanctuary . = holy
6635 . host . = mass of people
4823 . trodden under by foot . = abasement - to be humiliated6663 . cleansed . = to make right in a moral and forensic senseThis gives How long the sighting: the duration and the amazing religious revolt that makes both holy mass of people to be humiliated ? 2,300 days until the holy is made right in a moral and forensic sense.It can now be seen that "the sighting" is one subject separated by 'the duration' with the other subject being "the amazing religious revolt that makes both holy mass of people humiliated".
The 'duration' is given as 2,300 days with the second subject related to the "holy people" being clarified as being "made right in a moral and forensic sense".This is what is derived when the meanings from Strong's written Concordance are used.The point of this exercise is that, if we have been told the wrong start and end events, then we may have not been aware that these two events have occurred, or we will not recognize them when they do occur.Is what I have derived closer to the original meanings ?
What I have found is somewhat similar to the 1898 translation by Young.Questioning the accuracy of the translation of the Bible's words - still,
Eddy

Thankyou to all those who replied to me privately.My extractions were from a 1996 hard bound edition of Strong's Concordance.Kim provided me with these extractions from the 1984 hard bound edition. All this mostly confirms my translation, except
"Abasement" also means 'depriving one of self esteem' (as well as to be humiliated).
"Sanctuary" means 'a sacred or holy place'.This gives "How long the continuance of the sight, and the amazing (religious) revolt that makes both the holy place and the (holy) mass of people to be deprived of self esteem ? 2,300 days until the holy place is made right in a moral and forensic sense."This confirms that "the sighting" is one subject separated by 'the continuance' with the other subject being "the amazing (religious) revolt that makes both the holy place and (holy) mass of people to be deprived of self esteem ".
The 'duration' is given as 2,300 days with the second subject related to the "holy place and the holy people" being clarified as being "made right in a moral and forensic sense".These are the original meanings, verified by other people, taken direct from Strong's Concordance.
Strong was not happy with the KJV translation, so about 200 years later he listed the original Hebrew (and Greek) meanings of the words from the Bible.And yes, I even checked these translations to the electronic version that was used by some of you via the link stated in a previous post.
Except for some minor discrepancies, this checks out the meanings I propose too.Pertaining to the events described by Daniel, I will be waiting for what the original Hebrew words say - and not for what religious translators (who often had their own agenda) before and after the 1611 KJV Bible translated.I see the angel telling Daniel of future events being this:
At some point in our history there is a specific VISION - the sighting.
2,300 days later there is an amazing rebellion that makes the holy place and the holy mass of people to loose their self esteem.
On this day the holy things will be made right (in a moral and forensic sense).This refers to The Judgement theme contained within the Bible's words.
This Vision event is part of that Judgement.Religious scholars see this as a positive thing for Christianity, but to me it seems that many Christian religions (denominations and sects?) are going to be "trodden under foot" by the amazing End Time VISION.This message has been edited by Eddy Pengelly, 11-18-2004 12:48 AM

Greetings TheClashFan;
It may read differently, and be interpreted differently by certain people, but whoever wrote it had ONE specific idea when he put pen to paper concerning a specific event that occurs in the End Times.
I ask myself - do I believe what others tell me it means, or do I check out the original meanings from the Hebrew myself ?
When this is done, it is plainly seen that the 1611 English translation is not really correct - as they have added words to the original text.Point 1
What I am trying to clarify is that people are expecting "a vision concerning the daily sacrifice" and have associated these words with the activities of Jesus, but the original words according to the dictionary in Strong's Concordance clearly shows that some of these words are 'extra' English words - and that the original subject concerning the VISION is its 'duration' or continuance - which is a reference to an event in the End Times - and is not related to Jesus taking away the sins by his death etc. in circa 30 CE (or coming back).Point 2
The "transgression of desolation" has a similar pre-conceived religious idea, but again, the concordance shows that this second event - whose duration is given in the next verse as 2300 days, and its result in last part of verse Daniel 8:13 - is a (religious) revolt that amazes people.Point 3
The "sanctuary and the host" translates as 'the holy place and the holy mass of people' (ie. the Church and its members) - and these are the 'things' that are going to be "trodden down".Point 4
The original meaning of "treading down" is 'abasement' which means either to be humiliated or to lose self esteem.Point 5
"Cleansed" means 'to make right in a moral and forensic sense'.So the perceived expected religious event relating to Jesus is NOT reflected in the original meanings of the Hebrew words. Therefore what people have been waiting for is the wrong events relating to the wrong biblical character.As I said in my post "This refers to The Judgement theme contained within the Bible's words. This Vision event is part of that Judgement".So what we need to look for is an amazing event (#1) that pertains to a certain VISION, that 2300 days later humiliates the Churches and their members because it (#2) makes things right in a moral and forensic sense. (ie. A Judgement)
Now this is what the original Hebrew text was saying.All we need to do now (or later) is to look into history books and find an amazing VISION that exactly 2300 days later causes a religious revolt.This is how I see it, Eddy

The two verses you quote are speaking of two different time periods:
8:15-26 is about Greece, then the Roman Empire and its later Holy Church and office of Pope;
8:13-14 is about the End Times.

Thanks for the historical information that you provided. It is clearer and more easy to understand than the accounts in various study Bibles that I have sourced, and mostly confirms the historical information for Daniel's time period.Then comes the End Time context (and time period).Look up the word "anachronism".The history of the Roman Empire follows on from the Median and Greek time periods.The End Time sequence of historical events are the fifth historical view, and in context relate to the Roman Empire.

(extract used with permission)
Daniel asks an angel for an explanation about the "fourth beast" (7:19).7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
"the fourth kingdom upon earth" = the fourth kingdom that chronologically follows Greece = the Roman Empire.7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise" = the ten Roman Emperors: Superbus, Augustus, Nero, Vespasian, Trajan, Hadrian, Aurelius, Caracalla, Diocletian, and Constantine.
"he shall subdue three kings" = he shall subdue the three previous Roman kingdoms; Monarchy, Republic, and Empire.
"another shall rise after them" = another kingdom shall arise after these three kingdoms - the Holy Roman Church.Verse 7:23 started to list the characteristics of this fourth kingdom - "shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces".
7:25 continues its characteristics - "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time".These verses are telling us that the religious fourth Beast is a fourth kingdom different to the previous three of the Roman Empire which devours the whole earth, treads it down, and breaks it in pieces. Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall
a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.a). In Genesis 1:14 'days' as a period of time can refer to 'years', and in Strong’s Concordance Greek word #2250 days gives ‘day, age, time, years’, confirming this biblical exchanging of time values.
An ancient year consisted of 360 days, but as 'days' can refer to 'years', then the value of "Times" from Daniel 7:25 can equal 360 years.
So the given formula of "Time, and Times, and the dividing of Time = Total years" represents the mathematical equation T + Tx2 + T/2 = Total years.
Solving this drives 360 + 720 +180 = 1260 years.Thus a fourth kingdom different to the previous three kingdoms lasts for 1,260 years.The dominant European country, the Roman Empire, consisted of three separate periods. Was there a fourth Roman kingdom different to the previous three, and did it last 1,260 years ?Yes. The fourth empire was a religiously run dominion, and was ruled by the title of Pope rather than Emperor.
(A subtle change from a Military Empire to a Religious State.)
After the Western Empire was dissolved in 476 AD, Rome itself fell in 546.
King Charlemagne gave his new kingdom the name Roman Empire in 800.
Otto the Great of Saxony also gave his kingdom the name Roman Empire in 962.
This lasted until 1806 and was renamed the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century.Thus from the fall of Rome in 546 (and after the third Roman Empire) until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 was 1,260 years. (1806 - 546 = 1260)The Holy Roman Christian Church is the biblically described fourth beast-kingdom. This Church introduced and insisted that its followers worship the biblically named woman Mary and perpetuated the idea that the OT Messiah was 'the Christ Jesus'.From an Old Testament Hebrew perspective, historically, did this Church:
b) speak words against the most High; c) change times; and d) change laws ?Yes, to all three.b). Speak words against Jehovah - the Hebrew God.
A Son and a Mother of God have been added to Jehovah's original religion of only one God.
Pope Gregory I initiated the teaching of Purgatory for those who die as Roman Catholics.These teachings are not from the words of the original Hebrew god YHWH, nor are they found in the Old Testament.c). Change times
Pope Gregory XIII introduced the Gregorian Calendar.
Thursday Oct 4 1582 was followed by Friday Oct 15 1582Time itself was literally changed by 11 days !d). Change laws
The Roman Emperors and subsequent Popes introduced their own religious Doctrines and Laws that derived a different type of Christianity from that spoken of by the original Nazarene movement of the first Century AD. They even wrote their own version of the Bible - the Latin Vulgate.
Under Pope Gregory 1 the position of Pope became the supreme authority of the western Church instead of the Hebrew God (or even Jesus Christ).Concluding in 1563, the Council of Trent passed numerous disciplinary decrees as well as doctrinal decisions such as the doctrine of Justification; the extent of the Canon of the Scriptures and the authenticity of the Vulgate; the theology of the Sacraments, especially those of the Eucharist and Marriage; Purgatory; the Veneration of the Saints; and Indulgences.
The rise of a world Religion being Daniel’s fourth Beast is therefore the Holy Roman Catholic Church, as it historically confirmed in 1563 what the angelic messenger describes."shall devour the whole earth" = the spread of the Catholic religion around the world.
"shall tread it down" = the forced religious values of this Church on the world's various populations via such avenues as the inquisition.
"and break it in pieces" = the many religious wars fought by the Catholic Church and the deliberate destruction of cultures such as the Inca of South America.7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
This means that the final judgement will provide the truth about Christianity - and the role of the Church in the world will come to an end.

Spin askedSorrymy indiscretion. Yesin your opinion, and in reference to an anachronism to the time frame of the "early times" - all of which I acknowledged and agreed. as above. Reading the text literally provides the 'early' stated historical anachronism.
The End Time context (which is specifically stated later) changes the 'literal' interpretation to the context of what the angel was actually telling and showing Daniel of the 'near future' and how this affects the End Times. I have done a word search of Daniel - and there is no mention of an elephant.Sorry, it is just your opinion. Tusks are not made of iron. A "clear indication" is not fact. Your guess is not evidence either !! In Daniel (Ezekiel, and John of Revelations) an angel shows and tells Daniel about the future kingdoms that will form and what will happen to them in the End Times. (ie. the two anachronisms as I call them.) When Daniel says "what the?" the angel again explains to him what he was just shown and told.
The angel physically showed Daniel 'future history' from a 'modern history book' that he took to the time period of circa 600BC.
I have seen a copy of that 'history book' - and what has previously been believed to be just "symbolic" imagery, is actual descriptions from that 'history book'.The "four beasts in the middle, being a lion, a man, like an eagle, and an ox " refer to the four icons in the middle of the page that are in the shape of the following animals: 1) a lion, 2) a man 3) something like eagle wings 4) a calf (Ox).
The lion = the Etruscan civilization. The man = Carthage. Like eagles wings = the Greek civilization. The Calf = the Roman Empire. The fourth beast on the page (and by chronology) represents the Roman Empire. The ten stated emperors are listed in the Roman Empire's history section.
Alexander the Great is listed in the Personages section.The sequence of twenty animals/things of Daniel 7:2-8 are descriptions of pictures from within in the Etruscan presentation (the lion icon). Because once the Roman priests (then Popes) got the monopoly on translating the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts, what they wanted us to believe became the translation and interpretations that we now believe. Then the English translation did a similar thing. Most biblical texts, and especially their interpretations, are not what was originally intended.As someone else inferred earlier on, it is believed by some that Strong's Concordance (the original, and not the modern versions) is a decoding key that returns the 'modern translations' back to the original intended meanings.
The discussing of this claim was actually the purpose of this thread, but we seem to have gone off track - and moved on to what history the angel showed and told Daniel. The reply to my original post by Kim confirmed the meanings that my version of the Concordance dictionary provided.