Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,919 Year: 4,176/9,624 Month: 1,047/974 Week: 6/368 Day: 6/11 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creationist model
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 60 of 242 (446251)
01-05-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by tesla
01-05-2008 12:19 PM


Re: my creation model
Tesla,
You are not--in any way, shape or form--presenting a scientific model as you proposed. Please learn what a scientific model is before proposing to state one.
You are obliged to propose a model that makes predictions. You have to propose something scientists can test. If you aren't doing that, you aren't doing science. Saying 'it's just as likely the universe came from something as nothing' gives a scientist nothing to test. Saying such a thing neither proposes nor refutes a scientific proposition.
What you have done here is attempt a philosophical argument, not a scientific model. This is of no professional use to scientists, but it might be of some casual interest as philosophy if you showed any sign of knowing what you were doing. As it stands, you show no more acquaintance with what constitutes a valid philosophical argument than you do with what constitutes a valid scientific model. The word games you play here are the kind of bush-league silliness that gives philosophy a bad name among those who are ignorant of it.
Philosophy is not expected to prove itself empirically as science must. But valid philosophy does accord with observable phenomena and explains it in a plausible (if not irrefutable) manner. What is essential is that any argument put forth must hold together logically. Just as in science, terms must be strictly defined and conclusions rationally drawn. Competent philosophers, like competent scientists, are ruthless logicians. Why? Because they know that if there's no discipline, there's no knowledge. Bad logic is out of court. It stands invalidated by reason.
Your scientific model fails because it is not a model. Your philosophical argument (whatever it is) fails because it has already equivocated on at least two crucial terms. Your terms are not staying put, which means your ideas aren't.

Space
You use this term two ways. You mean, on the one hand, the abstract concepts of breadth, height, and depth. On the other you mean 'outer space', that is, interplanetary space as it really exists with its radiation, light, particles and so on. So which is it going to be?
Real
This term is a disaster. As your whole argument seems to hinge on the idea of 'reality,' it would be encouraging indeed if you could give some indication that you hold a clear idea about it yourself. You do not do this. You consistently mix up the idea of 'real' with other things and ask your readers to do the same.
To begin, for example, by assuming that 'real' and 'material' are synonyms. You do not argue the premise; you assume it. But they are not. (Never mind that this is an odd assumption indeed for a theist to be making.) From that you want to argue that since reality is always matter (an equation you have not demonstrated), reality must also be always energy. Why? Because matter 'is' energy, you say--an equation that has problems of its own, as you have been shown.
It's just a mess. I'm sorry.
Thank you for your candor in admitting that the grand race stalled at the starting gate. But please: the next time you want to make a hash of science, be so kind as to use science for your hash. Philosophy doesn't deserve this treatment. It's an innocent bystander.
________
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by tesla, posted 01-05-2008 12:19 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 9:32 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 78 of 242 (446453)
01-06-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by tesla
01-06-2008 9:32 AM


Re: my creation model
Tesla:
what good is science, when science cannot prove that anything its offering is real?
What good is religion, when religion cannot prove that anything it offers is real?
tell me, by what "faith" does science acknoledge whether or not anything it is studying is "real"?
Tell me, by what "science" does faith acknowledge whether or not anything it is studying is "real"?
By the way, we're still waiting for that scientific model you promised.
_______
Edited by Archer Opterix, : punctuation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 9:32 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 12:02 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 88 of 242 (446467)
01-06-2008 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by tesla
01-06-2008 12:02 PM


Re: my creation model
Tesla:
without a definition of reality, every walk of your life is just "faith"
And without a model on which we may base predictions and conduct tests, every word you say is BS. You have done no science.
I refer you again to the title of your OP. We're waiting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 12:02 PM tesla has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 89 of 242 (446469)
01-06-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
01-06-2008 12:32 PM


Re: my creation model
Ringo:
All "objectivity" means in science is that anybody can do the same experiment and get the same result. That consensus is as close to "reality" as science tries to get.
So, if you actually had a "creation model", it could be tested by Christians and atheists and Muslims and Jews and Hindus and they'd all get the same answer. The same answer doesn't have to be The Right Answer™ as long as it's useful and everybody agrees on it.
Well said!
We're still waiting, Tesla, for that model you promised that meets this standard.
_________

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 01-06-2008 12:32 PM ringo has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 148 of 242 (447851)
01-11-2008 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by tesla
01-06-2008 2:10 PM


Re: my creation model
The great misnomer continues.
tesla:
I'm sorry for those i have confused, i just simply want you to accept that reality is real.
And I want you to accept that an eggplant is an eggplant.
A deep concept, I know. Try not be get confused.
so please, i have tried to withdraw so that your minds can come to reason within its ability only, because the mind cannot fathom what it cannot reason.
No, you have tried to withdraw because, after promising everyone a scientific model, you have proven unable to do anything of the sort and uninformed about what a scientific model even is.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 2:10 PM tesla has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 149 of 242 (447852)
01-11-2008 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by tesla
01-06-2008 3:17 PM


baby, you can drive my car
tesla:
because a car cant be driven if only a thought of a car is there.
On the contrary: a car that exists only in thought can easily be driven. All you need is a driver who exists in the same thought.
Try it. Imagine a yellow Mini Cooper.
Now imagine yourself climbing into the driver's seat. Fasten your seat belt. Now start the car. Get it into gear, moving forward, then give it some gas. Take it around the track for a lap or two.
Easy, yes?
the car either IS or IS NOT. there is no in between.
There IS a car here, right now.
The car you are talking about.
This car is real because it exists as an idea. This reality is nothing to sneeze at, either. It is only because of this reality that you are able to talk about the car at all.
Thank you for providing an excellent example of an 'in between' state whose possibility you deny. But, if we may speak more precisely, it is not a matter of an 'in between' state so much as a matter of categories. At issue is not whether the car is real, but what kind of reality it has.
_______
Edited by Archer Opterix, : No reason given.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : going the extra mile for good prose.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : living EvC life in the fast lane.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by tesla, posted 01-06-2008 3:17 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by tesla, posted 01-11-2008 9:25 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 181 of 242 (448772)
01-15-2008 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by tesla
01-11-2008 9:25 AM


Re: baby, you can drive my car
tesla:
without energy and existence of your body, no thought can be possible.
How would you know? Maybe it can.
Theists have been postulating the existence of supernatural (that is, immaterial and metaphysical) intelligence for centuries. Surely you've noticed. On what basis did you decide your fellow creationists are wrong and that naturalism and materialism are the way to go?
While you're answering that, please address the subject. We were talking about that yellow Mini Cooper. You ignored the car in your reply. Surely you noticed, though, that your point about the car stands refuted.
It now falls to you to refute or concede. It is moving the goal posts to suggest now that the car and driver don't matter. They mattered to you before. You brought them up.
you can deceive yourselves, but i will not be decieved.
This claim to infallibility already stands falsified by the evidence. Note that you have spelled the word deceive two different ways.
Only the first is correct. It follows that you are not immune to error as you claim.
180 posts on, by the way, we're still waiting for that scientific model you promised.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by tesla, posted 01-11-2008 9:25 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by tesla, posted 01-15-2008 7:16 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024