To Brian:
You did not read the previous posts. I said there could have been a mix of natural and supernatural explanations. Secondly, there is historical support for the Book of Jonah. Thirdly, if you find it boring why do you keep coming back! LOL
To Others:
Here is a synopsis of where I am at in terms of some science issues and it includes a posting from another site. It includes some good posts by parties of both camps (Christian/skeptics):
To: Everyone
I found some additional information at the following website
http://www.calvarychapel.com/...{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
"The Smithsonian Institution has on record an incident in which one fish swallowed another fish that weighed fifteen hundred pounds. The precise identity of the fish is not important. Apparently, God has a number of fish in His repertoire capable of the feat. The important fact is that God is in control of His creature, and His creature unwittingly obeys and serves His purposes. (1)
R.K Harrison writes:
" . . . It was shown as long ago as 1915 that even a true whale could save a man from drowning if he managed to negotiate the air-supply tract of the mammal and reach the great laryngeal pouch. From time to time there have appeared in various publications accounts of incidents that purport to be similar to that in which Jonah was apparently involved. Thus Eichhorn recorded that a "seehund" began to swallow a sailor, but immediately released him almost unharmed from its jaw. On another occasion a whale hunter was reportedly swallowed in 1891, but was recovered the following day in unconscious condition from the inside of the mammal.
To Minnesota:
I thought about this debate more. I think you were sincere in some respects in bringing up the science questions you raised. I also did not look at your links as closely as I should have and I am glad I looked at your post a second time. At this point I would like to find out several things:
1. Are your links or ANONYMOUS'S source more reliable about entry into the pouch area. Is their autonomy and no connection in the sperm whale between the digestive system and the respiratory system? Your links seemed somewhat general and not specific the sperm whale but I am not automatically dismissing them. I do not know the answer to this question and will seek some additional clarification from ANONYMOUS via posting a letter in the Investigator Magazine (I believe ANONYMOUS is a scientist by his writings and he seems diligent and sincere). I can verify ANONYMOUS's feedback after he gives it to me should he wish to do additional research.
Note to readers:
see Minnesota's abbreviated post 41 below:
The larynx is a special part of the body that functions as an airway to the lungs:
Whales are mammals who breathe air into their lungs. Blowholes are a whale's nostrils and are located on the top or back of the whale's head. Blowholes are covered by muscular flaps that keep water from entering them when the whale is under water. In the relaxed state, the flap covers the blowhole. A blowhole leads to the whale's trachea and then to its lungs. Unlike us, whales cannot breathe through their mouth; they only breathe through their blowholes.
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/...s/anatomy/Blowhole.shtml
AND
Whales can't breathe through their mouths. Their nostrils are on top of their heads. What's called the "blowhole" is really the whale's nostrils. The "spout" the whale sends up is really the condensate from its breath as it exhales. The pattern of the spout varies with whale species, and old-time whaling men could tell a sperm whale from a right whale, and so forth by the pattern of its exhalation, or "blow."
The blowhole is isolated anatomically from the pharynx. There's a direct connection between the blowhole and the trachea, and a whale, unlike a dog or a human, can't choke on his food by aspirating it.
Academic Programs and Professional Training | Virginia-Maryland College of Veterinary Medicine | Virginia Tech
Therefore the respiratory circuit is totally autonomous from the digestive circuit creating major advantage
1. The air cannot pass into the stomach
2. In immersion, water cannot pass into the lungs nor the nasal cavities
Aarluk.com is for sale | HugeDomainswhich is a generallized post regarding whales in general and it is not specific to sperm whales:
Compare this to what ANONYMOUS cited:
Macloskie (1942) argued that the whale has to expel superfluous water from its mouth after receiving food. In the process a creature trapped in the mouth might reach the laryngeal pouch below the larynx. The pouch is big enough to hold a human who would, in addition, use the whale’s own air supply and have no worries about digestive juices. The Bible phrase "belly of the fish" should not count against this hypothesis since ancient peoples did not distinguish as many internal organs as we do today. In other words the entire front (=ventral surface) of a fish or whale might be referred to as the "belly".
Is Macloskie correct or Minesota's post 41 source(s) in regards to the sperm whale? I do not know at this point.
2. How wide is the blowhole? I am guessing not that wide.
3. How acidic is the point beyond the gullet? Does it get increasing acidic as one goes increasing beyond the gullet? Could a man survive by straying close to the gullet?
4. Could a man survive by staying just before the gullet?
5. We know that whales who are dying have the symptom of spitting up food and the Jonah account said that Jonah was spit up. But we also know that God directed the whale to spit up Jonah so this may be moot in terms of the whale possibly being near dying.
Therefore, two questions are raised:
- Do whales have just as much gastric juice production if they are dying?
- How frequent are whale digestive problems in terms of not producing enough gastric juices or no gastric juices or poor gastric juices in terms of acidity? Could this have saved Jonah?
It seems to me if the above could be a concern then the whale could have been dying to digestive concerns.
I realize you did not appreciate me bringing up philosophical/theological issues in God protecting Jonah in terms of protecting Jonah in terms of the natural environment through the miraculous but I thought in good conscience the question should be at least raised given the context of the account (God is said to have intervened at least three times in the Jonah account although one of them is not as specific as the other two). see below:
Jonah 1: 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
Jonah 2:1-3
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.
For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about_: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Jonah 2: 10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry [land].
A KEY QUESTION IN REGARDS TO THE BIBLE VERSES:
What was Jonah being afflicted with (see above verse in Jonah 2:1-3, specifically: "And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD")? The general dire circumstance of being swallowed by a whale? Lack of air? Gastric Juices? We simply do not know. In the context of a God creating the unvierse out of nothing and doing many miracles and many people experiencing miracles today including myself I am led to believe that God could have overcome such issues if necessary. He certainly saved the men from the fiery furnace for example.
TO: Everyone
I am sending a email to the Investigator Magazine in a few minutes. Perhaps, the writer of the original piece would like to provide some input and you can check back to the original piece for updates. Perhaps he/she has other interest or priorities.
To: Investigator readers: The whole debate transcripts can be seen at the following address:
TheologyWeb Campus
At this point I have decided to leave the debate because it seems as if their is disinterest in doing more research by other participants as well as myself in regards to the science issues. I do plan on contacting ANONYMOUS and the Investigator Magazine people as I stated in post # 101 and get further clarification regarding the issues I mentioned. Perhaps, some additional information will be gleaned. Please check their website at the location I gave.
I looked at the Bible verses more closely and saw more clearly that divine or non divine solutions could have played a part plus the commentary I mentioned earlier was helpful. I cited the verses in post 101. This obviously has lowered my interest in finding out all the science issues specific to the Jonah account because I do not assume a universe without God's intervention and know from person experience that God has intervened for me on many occasions. I do want to find out about the laryneal pouch question and will seek other sources if ANONYMOUS does not provide me with further research. I still do have an interest in science in general but just a diminished interest in regards to the Jonah scenario. I am in no way conceding the science issues but I just believe that I have conflicting testimony that is non-specific to sperm whales and not enough science information to make a logical decision. I also think that ANONYMOUS input in terms of the whale having a gullet and the source he cited that a sperm whales gullet can accomodate a man was very helpful and cleared up a modern myth. I also think he raised some other issues that raise questions in terms of the science issues and human survivablity in a whale. Plus he gave several accounts of such events. I also have found the skeptics arguments for a universe without miracles to be inadequate.
If the writer of the original Jonah piece chooses to do no more additional research, I do plan on asking a qualified person who knows about sperm whales the laryneal pouch question because I am curious at this point and want further clarification.
If anyone wants to see what becomes of this please see the latest entries to the following string:
ADSL, ADSL2+, Broadband plans, Internet, Telephone, VOIP, SIM | Internet Service | Adam Australia | Internet Service | Adam Australia
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