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Author Topic:   Reconstructing the Historical Jesus
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 397 of 560 (620696)
06-20-2011 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by PaulK
06-20-2011 1:21 AM


Re: Christianity without Jesus
PaulK writes:
Only if it is relevant to the topic. And if you can actually bring anything to the subject instead of wasting time with posts like the last couple.
Ok. Since it is relevant to the topic then we should discuss it.
The jesus character is partially derived from previously established religions.
This weighs against the suggestion that there was an historic jesus.
Perhaps you can actually bring something to the subject instead of wasting time with posts like the last couple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 1:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 8:22 AM Panda has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 398 of 560 (620697)
06-20-2011 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by PaulK
06-20-2011 7:43 AM


Re: If not Jesus, then who ?
PaulK writes:
So, who is it ?
Burden Of Proof fallacy...
http://www.nizkor.org/...ures/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 7:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 8:29 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 401 of 560 (620703)
06-20-2011 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by PaulK
06-20-2011 8:29 AM


Re: If not Jesus, then who ?
PaulK writes:
If Crashfrog claims to have a better explanation for Christianity than a historical Jesus, then the burden of proof is certainly on him to show that he does.
But that is not what you asked.
You asked "Who founded christianity?", and not "Why is your explanation better?"
You are doing exactly the same as a someone claiming that if a physicist doesn't believe in god then he must be able to explain how the universe began - else god is trve and the physicist is wrong.
And CF has explained why 'no historical jesus' is self-evidently more parsimonious than 'an historical jesus'.
Other than linking a definition of 'parsimonious', I see little more he can do to explain it to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 8:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Jon, posted 06-20-2011 11:22 AM Panda has replied
 Message 405 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2011 12:52 PM Panda has replied
 Message 406 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 12:54 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 404 of 560 (620728)
06-20-2011 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Jon
06-20-2011 11:22 AM


Re: If not Jesus, then who ?
Jon writes:
Physics isn't history.
Now you just need to understand what an analogy is.
Jon writes:
And there are realms of difference between proposing 'god' as an explanation and proposing 'human being' as an explanation.
I guess you must be arguing with my analogy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Jon, posted 06-20-2011 11:22 AM Jon has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 408 of 560 (620734)
06-20-2011 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by PaulK
06-20-2011 12:54 PM


Re: If not Jesus, then who ?
PaulK writes:
Obviously it is NOT "exactly the same". For instance Crashfrog is the one proposing a vague hand-wavy idea, while arguing against a plausible naturalistic explanation. And the criteria I am asking Crashfrog to meet come directly from his own arguments against my position. If they cannot reasonably be applied to his alternative, it is for him to explain why.
1) 'People made up the jesus character' is not "a vague hand-wavy idea". It is a very definite defined idea. Your understanding of it may be vague, though.
2) 'People made up jesus character' is "a plausible naturalistic explanation" - so there is nothing wrong with choosing that argument over the less parsimonious argument you are putting forward.
3) You are expecting someone to identify the originator of a religion when discussing the historical jesus - and when they say that they can't, you'll shout "I WIN!".
But you have also failed to identify the originator of the religion - instead you have asserted it was jesus and then claimed that an historical jesus existed, while providing no evidence.
4) Your claim that arguments need to be applied equally is seriously flawed.
If you said unicorns existed, I could expect you to show me them. If you said unicorns did not exist, then I could not expect you to show me 'a lack of unicorns'.
You are asking to be shown 'a lack of historical jesus', when it is you making the claim that an historical jesus exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 12:54 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2011 2:01 PM Panda has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 409 of 560 (620735)
06-20-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by cavediver
06-20-2011 12:52 PM


Re: If not Jesus, then who ?
cavediver writes:
No, Crashfrog has simply demonstrated yet again (and now you also) that 99.9% of all attempts to use parsimony in an argument result in pure bollocks.
I'm sure you have a paper somewhere that actually gives the calculations for 'pure bollocks'.
Would you care to define what metric you are using to perform the necessary comparison?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2011 12:52 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by cavediver, posted 06-20-2011 1:56 PM Panda has not replied

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