EvC Forum: If prayers go unanswered....?

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Topic: If prayers go unanswered....?

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 8 of 201 (195656)
03-31-2005 5:18 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by clpMINI
03-30-2005 5:41 PM

there's no loss of faith in believers simply due to confirmation bias: if a prayer is answered (or appears to have been answered), it reinforces the faith. If a prayer is not answered, it is simply ignored or put down to other reasons (being too greedy, having sinned, god has some other purpose, etc.)

For the church, clergy, evangelists, et al, it's a win-win situation.

clpMINI writes:

So what happens, what is the outcome, when a sincere, highly emotional, and personal prayer, from a very faithful person goes unanswered? Is there a loss of faith? Do you justify these unanswered prayers by claiming that it was God's plan and we just can't grasp it?

when my prayers didn't get answered, I certainly often put it down to God's unfathomable plan.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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	Message 1 by clpMINI, posted 03-30-2005 5:41 PM		clpMINI has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 6:10 AM		Legend has replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 11 of 201 (195666)
03-31-2005 7:30 AM

Reply to: Message 9 by mike the wiz
03-31-2005 6:10 AM

mike the wiz writes:

I've heard this many times. Confirmation bias and post hoc reasoning.

it's because it's true. We all do it, in different aspects of our lives, now and then. I tend to delude myself that my football team is the best in the division. When they win, my belief grows. When they lose, it's down to a 'bad day', or 'financial worries'.

mike the wiz writes:

It's clever but not conclusive logically because there is no way to discern the difference.

If we're talking about a personal, identifiable deity (like the christian god) yes there is a way to discern the difference: a personal, identifiable deity will have some characteristics that define its behaviour; if a refusal to answer a prayer (or turning down a prayer) negates any of these characteristics, we can conclude that said deity does not exist. If, on the other hand, the answer to the prayer is in line with these characteristics and the probability of it happenning by other means is very low, we can add weight to the hypothesis that said deity exists.

So, if I pray for a million pounds and it doesn't happen, I can account for the miss by means of it being a greedy, materialistic request, so the refusal doesn't discredit the hypothesis of an all-loving, all-powerful god existing. If I pray for a terminally-ill baby to get cured and it doesn't happen, there 's no justification why an all-loving, all-powerful god would turn that down or ignore it. Therefore the prayer's refusal (or non-answer) is an indication that this god doesn't exist.

mike the wiz writes:

So the real problem is that how can one conclude as to whether God exists on the basis of misses? How can we conclusively say that either he doesn't exist or that he is simply saying "no"?

like I said above, if his saying "no" negates his nature, we can conclude that he doesn't exist.

** edited for spelling **

This message has been edited by Legend, 03-31-2005 07:42 AM

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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	Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 6:10 AM		mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 8:01 AM		Legend has replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 15 of 201 (195693)
03-31-2005 9:09 AM

Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
03-31-2005 8:01 AM

mike the wiz writes:

Where does the bible say that God is all-loving?

here:

"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1Jn. 4.10).

mike the wiz writes:

Where does it make out that God will always heal a person?

That derives from the above and also that he's done it numerous times before through Jesus.

mike the wiz writes:

Infact, this is exactly my point about society's idea of God. Where does it say that God is all-loving? Does he love sin and wickedness?

he doesn't love sin and wickedness, but what's that got to do with a terminally-ill baby ?!
He loves all mankind (see above) and that includes ill babies. Unless -of course- you're implying that there are sinful and wicked babies out there.

mike the wiz writes:

What about the flood?

the flood blatantly contradicts John 3:16 and 1Jn. 4.10, but that's for you to reconcile, not me :-)

As far as I'm concerned, the O.T god is not the N.T god.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 8:01 AM		mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 9:23 AM		Legend has replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 19 of 201 (195705)
03-31-2005 9:50 AM

Reply to: Message 16 by mike the wiz
03-31-2005 9:23 AM

mike the wiz writes:

That doesn't say God is all-loving. He loves the world but I'm confident he doesn't love all that goes on in it.

what you think is irrelevant. John says God loves the world so much he gave his only son. If you think 'the world' doesn't mean mankind, what do you think it means? the dolphins, the trees, what ? If it means anything other than mankind it doesn't make sense, what did God give his only son for ?!

mike the wiz writes:

And who is "us"?

it's the same "us" that's used here:

"...behold, what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God"-1 Jn 3:1

and here:

"...unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" -Rev 1:5.

i.e. mankind

mike the wiz writes:

You think the OT is another God. That's your problem. You have a view that God is loving but not just and willing

I have no views on something that doesn't exist. I just conclude that the O.T describes a different God (possibly two) to the N.T

mike the wiz writes:

As for ill babies, many are healed, others aren't because of heavenly destinations. That's all that's left because Christ said wars and major devastations "must needs be" and "do not fret", and Christ loved his disciples did he not? Yet he told them they'd be handed over to government and killed. Do you think he loved them? He certainly did. So those he loved most were killed.

...so..we're back to the old 'God's mysterious plan' argument.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 03-31-2005 9:23 AM		mike the wiz has not replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 36 of 201 (195952)
04-01-2005 3:52 AM

Reply to: Message 33 by nator
03-31-2005 7:30 PM

schrafinator writes:

I make mention of statistics and "random chance" and you use it as an opportunity to rant and avoid the point.

mike and ranting?!........surely you're mistaken!!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 33 by nator, posted 03-31-2005 7:30 PM		nator has not replied

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