Atheist vs Agnostic

Hector...(I like the name Jacen better) Here is my take on it:Premise: God does not exist
Observation: I believe that I experienced God but can produce no proof. Many others that I have talked with have had similar encounters.
Conclusion: God may exist.
Objection: The lack of evidence does not mean something did not happen or is not possible or does not exist.All have not experienced the same thing.Still, without proof, it is a matter of belief.Premise: Pink Elephants may exist.
Observation: I have never experienced pink elephants nor has anyone whom I have ever talked to. Perhaps isolated mental patients could claim such an encounter.
Conclusion: Pink Elephants still may exist, but there is much less human testimony in favor of them than with God.
Objection: Without any proof, it is all a matter of belief.Premise: Religion is a fairy tale.
Observation: Religion has caused much turmoil and much passionate extremist beliefs within humanity.
Conclusion: The beliefs within religion are more than mere fairy tales. Much is invested in these personal beliefs.
Objection:Why can't everyone just be rational and reject that poison?!
Counter Objection: Why can't everyone just accept God?

Surely personal testimonies/recollections count for something. I know that here as in another thread eyewitness testimony has been downplayed but if you were in a hit and run and you had 100 people who all described the car that hit you, would that not count for something? Surely more than one guy who swore that a pink elephant bashed your car in and vanished in thin air!!Likewise I not only have my testimony but the testimony of thousands who will swear to a lifechanging experience and will describe God in much the same way. Not because they have been taught or indoctorinated but because they share the passion of the encounter. It is a personal thing.Furthermore, if 500 people testified that a pink elephant bashed your car in and then vanished in thin air, would not your impassive scientific mind give the evidence more consideration? Why is it human nature to always explain away things that make us uncomfortable?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-02-2005 09:59 AM

So how do your beliefs and my beliefs differ? I took the key points that I wish to address from this statement. I read the book and found that the beliefs which I have been taught and which I chose to embrace were in fact verified by many like minded people. These are not the swindling televangelists...these are respected (yes there are some!) leaders in Christian teaching. Some key points?

Nobody really seeks God. It is an observed trait that humans really don't wish to find a God who does not allow them to define and draft the terms of the relationship.
Everybody wants a God of human verification and definition, but NOBODY wants a God who actually out thinks us in every capacity. Naturally there is never any evidence for such a God, for He is beyond quantification.

You certainly can critically examine the Bible, and study the communication contained within the pages. If you yourself have never had that little spiritual "experience' to set it off, however, you have not met the author of the passion and meaning behind the book.
According to a believers perspective, anyway.BTW this does not make you ignorant or "out of da club" but it certainly may mean that the conclusions that you arrive at are different from your typical churchgoer.This leads us to determine whether our churchgoer has been enlightened or brainwashed.
You have the advantage of examing the book from a detached and rational perspective.In conclusion, I believe that you and others as rational as you will view the book differently than I and others like me do.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 04:50 AM

Good point, and something for ME to chew on for awhile. I'll get back to you in this thread perhaps...Forums are good places for Manifestos to be drafted. Ideas are never pointless, and I'm sure that we can carry on a bit further before one of us loses interest. I'll get back to ya!This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-05-2005 12:18 AM