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Author Topic:   Is truth good?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6527 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 3 of 20 (91414)
03-09-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-09-2004 4:01 PM


I think your viewpoing is highly paranoid
Some sort of naturs conspiracy to make us delusional. Hehehe.
I think Gods and Godesses, Spirits etc. come from the same place pretty much everything human does. An imaginative, inquisative, and creative mind. Have you ever read any Joseph Cample or Jung?
They have wonderfull theories concerning the phenomenon of religion and myth. It is not a useless adaptation at all, and infact when viewd objectively it's usefullness is very evident. It helps forge cultural identeties, bond societies together, entertain, and pass on values and ideals.
Myths tell us a great deal about ourselves and our relationship to the world, and they help comunicate the wisdom of those that came beofore. They are very good things. And quite deffinetly a product of our overactive brains.
As far as truth goes, I think you are struggling with the fact that "truth" is only a human concept. There is no truth outside of ourselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-09-2004 4:01 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-10-2004 3:41 PM Yaro has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6527 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 8 of 20 (91612)
03-10-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-10-2004 3:41 PM


Re: Truths and truth
Good point. To rephrase, to be sure I get your drift, we believe in a lie in order to believe in an elusive truth, that the lie somehow embodies better than some direct statement of same. Thus, some truths are so good that it is wise to believe in a (harmless) lie if the lie helps get to them.
Well, I don't think lie is the correct word. Lie implies falsehood, and perhapse malicious falsehood. People don't so much belive in myths as they do the meaning of them. Myths are more like stories, alegoryes, or metaphors. They teach us something by capturing our imaginations, and emotions. I don't think they are lyes anymore than Aesops fables are lies.
I suggest we not use that word, as it may pretty much derail the discussion into a symantic argument. Lie is not apropriate when adressing mythology, including the judeo-christian mythos.
The overactive brain part was my point, though. It's the overactivity of the brain that gets people past the myth into the "truth" that distracts or otherwise induces adaptively unfit behavior.
I think I agree, but I am noty sure what you mean by "adaptively unfit behavior", could you explain?
As I see it myths by and large are good things when not taken to litteral extreemes, or manipulated by others to meet their own agendas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-10-2004 3:41 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-10-2004 4:06 PM Yaro has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6527 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 10 of 20 (91614)
03-10-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-10-2004 3:41 PM


Lies...
here are some deffinitions, just to make it clear what we are talking about:
Lie Lie, v. i. imp. & p. p. Lied (limacd); p. pr. & vb.
n. Lying (limac"i^ng). OE. lien, liyoghen,
leyoghen, leoyoghen, AS. le'ogan; akin to D. liegen,
OS. & OHG. liogan, G. l"ugen, Icel. lj=uga, Sw. ljuga,
Dan. lyve, Goth. liugan, Russ. lgate.
To utter falsehood with an intention to deceive; to say or do
that which is intended to deceive another, when he a right to
know the truth, or when morality requires a just
representation.
And:
Myth Myth, n. Written also mythe. Gr. my^qos myth, fable,
tale, talk, speech: cf. F. mythe.
1. A story of great but unknown age which originally embodied
a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience,
and in which often the forces of nature and of the soul
are personified; an ancient legend of a god, a hero, the
origin of a race, etc.; a wonder story of prehistoric
origin; a popular fable which is, or has been, received as
historical.
I think this clarafies the diffrence quite adequately.

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 Message 7 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-10-2004 3:41 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6527 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 12 of 20 (91619)
03-10-2004 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-10-2004 4:06 PM


Ok, let's replace lies by untruths.
Ahem:
Untruth Un*truth", n.
1. The quality of being untrue; contrariety to truth; want of
veracity; also, treachery; faithlessness; disloyalty.
Lets just call them myths Stephen, because that is what they are.
Now, stories about gods are not exactly myths, in the sense you mean, because people pray to the gods that the stories are about, partly drawing on the stories to know how to pray, or sacrifice, or whatever.
Well, this does not necisseraly invalidate them as myths. You must remember that the concept of gods and worship varies greatly from culture to culture.
The Japanese shinto religion for example has an understanding that nature itself is suppernatural, filled with spirits called 'Kami'. These spirits are not so much beings to be prayd to, as they are natural principals, often indiferent to humans.
Australian Aborigional belifes are highly metaphorical, and rather beutifull. They see this world as a dream of sleeping gods, an ephemeral thought of eternal slumbering beings.
Just because belife in these gods, or in what the gods stand for, produce certain cultural behaviors, does not invalidate their mythic value. The two examples above reaveal a very rich, prfound, and meaningfull perspective on reality resulting from belife, and meditation, on these gods.
Thus, we have a myth, valuable as a myth, providing existential truths, and a cultural identety to a people. Gods do not affect their mythic validity one way or the other.
As to unfit behavior, my training (long ago!) in evolution, in population genetics as the basis for evolution, emphasized something called fitness, W, which was the rate at which a given gene increased or decreased in populations over time. When W was greater than one, phenotypes based on W increased, and were considered more fit. Less, than one, they were headed for extinction.
Are you suggesting that myths affect W, that is, natural selection? I suppose it may have some effect on the population.
When I did population studies on birds, comparing fitness between habitats, I measured life-time production of offspring, acceptably to the evolutionary community I think, as a reflection of fitness and the adaptive-ness of the habitat selection behavior. So, now, I have been considering similar sorts of data for those believing in evolution and those believing in creation. Which population is more fit, in the evolutionary sense. Has more offspring, reproducing offspring. My anectdotal experience, mostly working with home-schoolers and scientists, suggests that those believing in evolution raise fewer children. So with societies, and nations. Maybe some sociologist somewhere will put a grad student on the question.
Well, it is common knowledge that poorer people, with the least education are likely to have more chilldren. Creationisim is a belife that is rampant amongst the worlds poorest people and must uneducated. Could this be a coralation as well?
I find it philosophically interesting, because, as a part of studying applied epistemology, I am interested in the parameters of the being (us) pursuing the truth, or wallowing in self-delusion and denial, as the case may be. How are we functioning, and how did we get that way?
I really have to ask for a clarification here. Pretend I'm three years old and explain what you mean in the above paragraph.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-10-2004 4:06 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Melchior, posted 03-10-2004 5:43 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 16 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-11-2004 3:10 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6527 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 15 of 20 (91640)
03-10-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Melchior
03-10-2004 5:43 PM


Im not sure that our pension for mythology, and social practicis, is totaly human. Similar behaviors have been observed in Chimpanzees, Killer Whales, and Elephants. All of these are highly inteligent, and social animals.
Scientists have observed that different clans have different customs, and/or rituals. These behaviors help sement grupe identety, and keep the social machine "well oild". I don't see why human social practices can't simply be an expression of the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
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