Reciprocal Prayer - For Mike and Buz

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I think these are 'meditational' experiences rather than prayers. I have never taken drugs but I have meditated. In my advanced stages of meditation I felt very calm and 'seen' lights, kind of swirling around. They where very dull, personally I think it could have just been something I 'thought' I was seeing, or something emmited from my brain.

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This sounds, no offense, like a very early stage of meditation. I'm not suggesting like I'm some sort of enlightened yogi or something, but this is the sort of stuff that happened to me very when I first started trying it.

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This is (I think) a natural process

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Oh, I'm pretty sure it is. But, in case you hadn't guessed, I think everything's a natural occurence of some sort. ---I guess the reason I wanted to start the thread was to try and nail down what you guys are talking about when you refer to your answered prayers. What were/are they like? Do they differ from the experiences in my first post, and the ones in Hound and Coragyps' posts? How so?[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-06-2003]

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What were/are they like? Do they differ from the experiences in my first post, and the ones in Hound and Coragyps' posts? How so?

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Well, I will ask or pray for what I require. When I get the answer, I consider it answered. But when I meditate I don't ask for anything, I just breathe deep ,lol. Also trying to achieve some kind of altered state is not involved in my prayers.

What is the answer like? What form does it take?

Well, if I asked for freedom, for example, if I was free the next day, that is the form of the answer.
Maybe what you are looking for is testimonies, That mention specific requests.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-06-2003]

I think the other side, is what would you count as NOT getting an answer ? If you were not, in your example, freed the next day or the next ? Or not even the next week or the next month ? I wonder how often Terry Waite prayed for freedom.

Hi Dan and others. I too have been gone all day. This's an interesting topic and your experiences interesting.1. There is God (Jehovah) whose spirit, the Holy Spirit "bears witness with our (Christian believers) spirit that we are the children of God." This witness bearing is more of an abiding assurance within one's being rather than some high one gets and then it's gone.2. There are also God's angels, (the Greek angelos} meaning messenger. These messengers of God on rare occasions do visit men with experiences and messages, but this is rare. There are occasions of it in the Bible. I believe some are appointed as 'guardian angels and would tend to do and cause things rather than direct revelation.3. There is also Satan's kingdom involving many demonic spirits. These often present themselves in various ways, likely mostly subliminal to do some good on occasions to draw humans into deception and eventually things not good. A good example of this would imo, be the Heaven's Gates people, several dozen of them, all intelligent folks who became so immersed into deception that they all lay on their cots and took poison in order to connect with the Haley Comet and off to some paradise. This's powerful deception.4. Most Christian experiences are not really all that spectacular so far as some kind of special feeling, but when one is "filled" with the Spirit as the Bible admonishes us to be, one has a feeling of closeness to God and of spiritual power.Having said the above I'll get to some spectacular stuff in my life.Back in the 60's and early 70's I lived in So Cal and would make trips to NY at least once a year and would haul antique furniture and other stuff back to Ca for resale. I always had used vehicles, some not the latest and would break down on occasion. We always prayed about everything, including our trips. We had unusual things happen on occasion. For example, we were headed for Ca with a 12' Uhaul trailer behind our Dodge wagon from NY full of antiques. We got to Elk City, Ok and the heavy load began to do take it's toll on the wagon. We could see we'd not make it over the hilly and mountainous part of out trip. We, of course, prayed about our dilema. We'd spent most of our available cash on the load and had about around $1400 or so left to buy some kind of a truck. We went into Elk City, I think about 5000 population and check out the few lots but nothing. One guy sent us down to a little garage in town to see about fixing the car. We went over and in the conversation with the mechanic asked if he knew who might have a truck. He said, "go talk to the guy over at there." He was a customer who had bought a new truck and wanted to sell his old one. It had a trailer package and the price he quoted to me was way under book as it was not all that old. I believe it was $1200. The truck was a dandy, exactly what we needed. We paid him, hooked up and in a couple of hours were on our way. After we got to Ca I sold the truck for a nice profit. You might say this was just another coincidence, but when things like it happen so often, you know better. God, who care for his own, does these things to remind us that he is the I AM or the existing one as is the meaning of the name Jehovah.I'll cite just one more. On another trip, we had a 1/2 ton 60 Ford pickup pulling a heavy trailer and both truck and trailer loaded. We as we were coming into Palm Springs, Ca on the desert on Labor Day a wheel bearing spun out and ruined one of the rear axles as well as the bearing. My wife taught at a Christian school in Cal and was suppose to be home the next day to begin the year. We made it to a little garage that just happened to be open that Labor Day and told the guy our predicament. He said somebody must be looking out for us, or something to that effect and went on to say a dune buggy owner had give him a used axle off of a 49 Mercury and it was the only axle oother than a 60 Ford that would fit our truck. He also had a few new parts, including a bearing to fit. He said the axle cost him nothing and the only charge was the bearing. He was busy so I did the installation myself and we made it back on time for wifie to be on the job. Another time we drove with a broken crank shaft about 50 miles into Amarillo, found a garage to fix it and the guy let us and our two little boys sleep in our camper truck inside his garage as the job was a two day one. On and on I could go.When in the Air Force back in the 50's I did a lota hitch hiking. The girl I ended up marrying lived about 170 miles from base. I would go and visit her family on weekends often, usually hitching a ride. I always prayed about who I rode with. On one occasion I got so deeply into intense conversation with the guy who picked me up, explaining Biblical salvation and the prophecies, etc to him that we went about 60 miles beyond my Rome, NY exit before either of us realized that we'd overshot my destination by an hour.On another trip, I was hitching from Griffis AFB at Rome NY to my hometown to visit my parents in Wyoming. On one occasion I was on a corner thumbing and a big late model Chrysler pulled up and though I heard no voice, it was like God's spirit was saying "Don't get in," so I declined the ride. But the guy, a middle age man, persisted that I should go with him at length. It took some time to convince him I wasn't getting in. The more he persisted, the more I sensed he had no good intentions and intended to do me harm. In all the thousands of miles I hitched, that's the only time that happened. On another trip from base in NY to Madison Wisconsin a guy picked me up near Buffalo at an intersection. I got in the car and as we passed through the intersection, another guy came up behind us who'd seen me get in the car and honked us down. He said he was going all the way to Wheaton Ill and I could ride with him, so I did. He was a Christian inventor and took me all the way to Wheaton, had me over night, fed me breakfast in the morning and sent me on my way.Before I met the girl who was to be my wife, I had a different girlfriend who I dearly loved. I was hitching to Nyack near NYC where she was going to Nyack College, a Christian college to visit her. On the way between hitches I was in a restroom when I received a subliminal message, I believe from God. I say subliminal as I heard no voice. The message was loud and clear though that I was to be rejected by this girl I loved so much. We had never had a falling out and as far as I knew there was no reason for this, but when I arrived at Nyack she informed me that our relationship was over. I was emotionally devastated. I turned around and hitched the hundred or so miles back to base.Well, there's a few examples of how God works. I can't, of course, prove to you that these were miraculous from God, but these kind of things have happened too often in my life for me to doubt that God exists.Imo, demonic spirits bring more of the high feeling kind of stuff in visitations to humans. Drugs, hypnotism, yoga, spiritism, transcendental medition and such, void of God's spirit and his word would tend to prepare a person for entrance of demonic powers into one's being to produce feely exciting experiences so as to draw folks into the spiritual evil. The Bible speaks of "doctrines of demons" and some of the false religions were, imo, inspired by people who have had some of these visionary or feely spiritual experiences. Thus the NT warns Christians to "test the spirits" as to whether they are scriptural or not.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-06-2003]

Question: how does one tell the difference between a god and a demonic spirit in prayer or meditation or whatever you want to call it?

Buz-It's interesting to read about your experiences from a viewpoint of non-belief. To be honest with you, some of it sounds like intuition on your part... a feel-it-in-your-bones kind of thing. (I'm thinking specifically of the creepy guy in the Chrysler, and the experience with your ex-girlfriend.) If you want to attribute it to God, go nuts. To me though, it just sounds like you were being a sharp kinda guy.

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Well, there's a few examples of how God works. I can't, of course, prove to you that these were miraculous from God, but these kind of things have happened too often in my life for me to doubt that God exists.

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Not asking you to prove there's a God here, just as I'm not attempting to prove there isn't one. We can always go three rounds in another thread. But it's odd... while your experiences clearly aren't similar to mine, the majority of the experiences you list sound a lot like variations on unconcious magick rites. (Hate the k, think it sounds pretentious, but it seperates out the philosophy from preconceived notions of black robes, latin prayers, and sacrificing goats.) The basic tenet of a lot of them is simply that a person should keep an eye out for a latticework of coincidence across their lives, until they stop seeing coincidence. Eventually things like "holy crap, there was a garage open on Labor Day, what are the odds?" will seem like as strong a coincidence as "holy crap, every time I flip this little switch the lamp turns on. What are the odds of that?"

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Imo, demonic spirits bring more of the high feeling kind of stuff in visitations to humans. Drugs, hypnotism, yoga, spiritism, transcendental medition and such, void of God's spirit and his word would tend to prepare a person for entrance of demonic powers into one's being to produce feely exciting experiences so as to draw folks into the spiritual evil.

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Well... brain chemistry brings on most of the high feeling in drugs. And if a literalist interpretation of the bible is correct, then the devil had his hooks in me long before I ever found drugs or meditation. Seems like a waste of time for demons to be paying a visit to an already damned soul. Don't they have decent people to tempt? But in seriousness... as I said earlier, I don't think I was "visited" by anything during these experiences. It was more like talking to myself in the third person.As I said in earlier posts, it wasn't a matter of communing with Gods or devils; it was an experience of self-examination. I can't believe even the Christian God would disapprove of that.

One additional point:

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produce feely exciting experiences

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This is pretty clearly the description of someone who has not done drugs, or engaged in meditation. (I don't mean that as a slam, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb by supposing that you don't keep an eighth tucked away in the hall closet.)The experience produced by either drugs or meditation can't be predicted on a mass scale; it varies person to person. One person on shrooms will come out babbling like a hippie about how everything is love; another will have a horrid trip and be given a little three-hour guided tour of the outer suburbs of Hell. Most people will be somewhere in the middle, having neither a wonderful nor horrid experience, just a generally fun time. I've seen very few people, however, who want anything to do with feeliness, either mental or physical, while on hallucinogens. (Weed, yes. E, yes. Hallucinogens, nuh-uh. Never taken or been around anyone doing heroin or its derivatives, so I can't comment.)The experience of drugs in general, and oftentimes meditation, will be largely informed by what the person already has inside them.On another note, in the interest of not winding up EvC's resident drug czar... I actually haven't taken any mind-altering drugs other than alcohol for over a year. Just for the record.And if Mr. Ashcroft is reading, it's all a big joke. I've never taken drugs, honest. Drugs are bad.

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Well, there's a few examples of how God works. I can't, of course, prove to you that these were miraculous from God, but these kind of things have happened too often in my life for me to doubt that God exists.

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The problem with your stories from my point of view is that you remember and relay to us the "hits" but discount, forget, or do not even notice or remember any "misses."This human tendency is very, very common and is used by cold readers (psychics, fortune tellers, magicians and illusionists, TV faith healers and preachers, and even sales people) to build belief and faith in their "true connection" to the spirit world, God, or just to use for entertainment or manipulation purposes.cold reading - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.comCold reading goes beyond the usual tools of manipulation: suggestion and flattery. In cold reading, salespersons, hypnotists, advertising pros, faith healers, con men and some therapists bank upon their subject's inclination to find more meaning in a situation than there actually is. The desire to make sense out of our experience has led us to many wonderful discoveries, but it has also led some of us to many follies. The manipulator knows that his mark will be inclined to try to make sense out of whatever he is told, no matter how farfetched or improbable. He knows, too, that people are generally self-centered, that we tend to have unrealistic views of ourselves and that we will generally accept claims about us that reflect not how we are or even how we really think we are but how we wish we were or think we should be. He also knows that for every several claims he makes about you which you reject as being inaccurate, he will make one that meets with your approval; and he knows that you will remember the hits he makes and forget the misses.There is also something called Confirmation Bias at work:confirmation bias - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.comConfirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs.

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This tendency to give more attention and weight to data that supports our preconceptions and beliefs than we do to contrary data is especially pernicious when our preconceptions and beliefs are little more than prejudices. If our beliefs are firmly established upon solid evidence and valid confirmatory experiments, the tendency to give more attention and weight to data that fits with our beliefs should not lead us astray as a rule. Of course, if we become blinded to evidence truly refuting a favored hypothesis, we have crossed the line from reasonableness to closed-mindedness.

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Numerous studies have demonstrated that people generally give an excessive amount of value to confirmatory information, i.e., data which is positive or which supports a position (Gilovich, ch. 3). Thomas Gilovich speculates that the "most likely reason for the excessive influence of confirmatory information is that it is easier to deal with cognitively." It is much easier to see how a piece of data supports a position than it is to see how it might count against the position.

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Experimenters might avoid or reduce confirmation bias by collaborating in experimental design with colleagues who hold contrary hypotheses. Individuals have to constantly remind themselves of this tendency and actively seek out data contrary to their beliefs. Since this is unnatural, it appears that the ordinary person is doomed to bias.

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Imo, demonic spirits bring more of the high feeling kind of stuff in visitations to humans. Drugs, hypnotism, yoga, spiritism, transcendental medition and such, void of God's spirit and his word would tend to prepare a person for entrance of demonic powers into one's being to produce feely exciting experiences so as to draw folks into the spiritual evil. The Bible speaks of "doctrines of demons" and some of the false religions were, imo, inspired by people who have had some of these visionary or feely spiritual experiences. Thus the NT warns Christians to "test the spirits" as to whether they are scriptural or not.

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Funny, if yoga and meditation were so dangerous, then why do they often help people who practice them to reduce their stress, lower high blood pressure, and for yoga, become more physically flexible, toned, and relaxed?

Christianity does not deny you can contact spirits by means other than praying to God. See Saul.You might reach a belief now that there is a supernatural. Question is whether you want to expose yourself to what you dont know.Wouldn't be the first time a drug user woke up to find out he cut his friend's arm of and tried to roast it in the oven, but then the possibity of a 'bad' spirit is pure taboo.

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You might reach a belief now that there is a supernatural.

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I don't see why that would be the case. Have you been reading my posts in this thread?

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Wouldn't be the first time a drug user woke up to find out he cut his friend's arm of and tried to roast it in the oven

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Actually, I'm reasonably sure it would. (Whatever "it" is in this case.) If someone's together enough to cut off someone else's arm, and linear enough to think of cooking it, then they're together enough to know not to cut off someone's arm and try to cook it. The only way this could really happen is if the person doing the cutting already had some pretty severe psychotic tendencies before taking the drug.You haven't seen many people on drugs, have you, Zealot?

Why ? Appologies if I know little of drug use.PS: It has happened. Would you describe all people that use drugs and commit 'uncharacteristic' acts as "psychotic " ?

First off, "drugs" is a very vague term. What do you mean? Weed? Shrooms? Coke? Heroin? E?For the purposes of this conversation, I'll assume you're referring to hallucinogens. There's no other drug I can possibly think of that would impair a person's judgement and perceptions enough that anyone could even think they would cut off another person's arm without having a predisposition to that kind of behavior.

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Why?

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Why to what?If it's why to the first thing I said... jesus, ever tried to cut someone's arm off? (I haven't, but common sense takes over now.) First of all, it takes tenacity and concentration. (Something someone on hallucinogens will be severely lacking in.) On top of that, the person whose arm is being cut off will... oh... probably notice. They'll scream. They'll thrash. They'll fight back.Ever tried to overpower someone who's on hallucinogens? Here's the first tactic you can use if the situation ever comes up: push 'em. They'll fall right over.Hallucinogens knock you on your ass all on their own. Your sense of balance is shot, you have constant vertigo, and your sense of direction is nil. The last time I did them, I would barely have been able to lift the kind of blade you'd need to cut off an arm, let alone wield it while restraining the person I was using it on.If the person has sufficient motor control to cut off a person's arm (even if the other person isn't resisting) then they aren't on enough drugs to convince them it would be a good idea to do so.This is where the second thing I said comes in; if the person's already a total bloody psycho who thinks it's a good idea to cut off other people's arms, a small amount of drugs might give them the gentle drop in inhibition they need to do so. But arm-cutting aside, "don't hang out with total bloody psychos, no matter if they're on drugs or not" is good advice for life.Lastly, if you're on enough hallucinogens to make you think cutting off someone's arm is a good idea... good luck finding them. You'll be seeing so much shit you'll be lucky you can even see the person, let alone get over to them before they change into a cloud of butterflies or something.

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It has happened.

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Examples, please.

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Would you describe all people that use drugs and commit 'uncharacteristic' acts as "psychotic " ?

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Nope. Of course, I'd describe 'uncharacteristic' as eating a whole goddamned bag of chips when you're not even hungry, or making out with a girl to whom you would otherwise not be attracted.Which is pretty much the majority (and by majority, I mean a 99.999% majority) of uncharacteristic behavior on drugs, when you get right down to it.

Oven killer ..Dealer chopped up friend and roasted arm, court told