The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.

If God is eternal (infinite) then space and time (which are finite) cannot contain this being. No problem arises with God pre-existing the universe. This is exactly what we would expect.As it seems all your other objections to the Big Bang theory follow from the premise, there's no problem.omnivorous and Vacate, I see, have already called your attention to this. Interesting that all us skeptics should have to tell you how powerful your God is.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

I believe that for science purposes the definition of 'universe' is necessarily restricted to 'the space-time universe.' The reason is practical: we can't see beyond that.The scientists here can check me on this.____

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Sometimes I think the scientists and fundies deserve each other. What a pack of literalists. Literally, no, you can't have an 'outside' or a 'before' when space and time do not exist. When one uses these words one is using metaphors. One talks as if space and time existed where it doesn't.But as long as you know that's what you're doing, it's fine. Metaphors can't be avoided. It is only by the use of metaphoric language that we can discuss the situation at all. All human language and thought is conditioned by this universe of space and time.Next time see if it helps anything to use scare quotes. Instead of referring simply to something before and outside the Big Bang, try referring to something 'before' and 'outside' the Big Bang. The science types will see that you're savvy to the paradox and it might cool their jets a bit.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : messing around.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

It was a quick fix, I admit.I'm concerned about that reference to a throne and angels in Item 4.Buz -- you do recognize, don't you, that the same situation applies when talking about metaphysical beings as when talking about 'physics' pre-dating the existence of anything physical?Metaphor is the only way to talk about these things. But one has to know one is using metaphor. If you talk naively about time 'before' time and space 'outside' space, you'll get called on it. And if you talk naively about a noncorporeal being sitting on a throne, you'll get called on that, too.Anyone who talks about metaphysical beings has to talk as if they sit on thrones, as if they fly, sing, change their minds, etc. But it doesn't do to be literal. These images are ways of picturing that which cannot be pictured. The ancients could only talk and think in terms of the universe they lived in, as we do.To think in naively concrete terms about something as simple as God sitting in a chair creates all kinds of problems. Would an eternal, omnipresent Supreme Being be subject to the law of gravity? Does a noncorporeal being have a butt?More seriously: you cut the legs out from under your own theology if you really make your deity that limited.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : more typo repair.

Well, this takes us right to the heart of the paradox, doesn't it?We necessarily think in pictures. Pictures involve boundaries.We can remove boundaries to make our picture less limited. Each time we take one out, the picture becomes more abstract. As we remove more boundaries to make the picture more inclusive, we increase the level of abstraction. The picture holds less and less detail until we end with solid white or solid black.The paradox: our picture most faithfully portrays the boundless once we have no picture at all.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

It's the theology that is 'metaphysical,' Buz, not the science.And that's as it should be. Theology deals with the metaphysical as a matter of course. Whenever you talk about the supernatural (that which exists beyond the realm of nature) you are talking about metaphysics (that which exists beyond the realm of matter).For these reasons the objects of theological study lie outside the parameters of science.You seem to be proposing the existence of a God that is not a supernatural being at all but a natural one. If that's the case, I'm not sure your God can be called a deity at all. Supernatural essence is generally part of the definition.(Your use of the words 'surreal' and 'allegorical' appears suspect, too, but exploring that would take us off topic.) You might want to take your foot off the gas pedal and look ahead. A brick wall awaits at the end of the alley you're turning into. Jar has already alerted you to the dead end.__Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

The YUCs have many problems, yes. But those problems are with facts known to science that they deny.The question of God having 'no universe to be in' poses no problem for anybody other than the practical one of how to picture it.A noncorporeal being does not require a physical environment. An eternal being does not require the existence of time. A supernatural being does not require a natural habitat. Then 'time, energy and boundless space' are the True Gods in your religion. You describe them as eternal. God's existence depends on theirs. His task is just to manage his physical environment as he asked Adam and Eve to manage the Garden of Eden.Your 'time, energy and boundless space' are the True Gods because they are more powerful than your Jehovah God. They are the eternal powers behind the throne. JG and all else owe their continued existence to these Gods.__Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

What do you know about ancient ideas of the cosmos, Buz?I mean the model that prevailed before the heliocentric model took over in the Renaissance.Everything these ancients texts say about the cosmos is in keeping with the picture of the univere that prevailed in the Near East at the time. When biblical texts locate YHWH 'above the highest heaven' they do, in essence, locate him outside the physical universe, his creation.Have you ever seen a chart inside an edition of, say, Dante?It's worth taking a look if you haven't. Dante lived at the time of the last, fullest flowering of the ancient model.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair, clarity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Some big things just went under the rug, Buz, but you're holding the broom.Your non-answer to my post ignored the crucial point. Here it is again.I said that in your religion Jehovah God is not really in charge of the universe. Your True Gods are, as you word it, 'time, energy and boundless space.' JG is just the manager of the universe, their creation.What makes Time, Energy, and Space the real Trinity in Buzsaw's religion? The omnipotent power they wield. It is upon these True Gods that Buz's Jehovah depends for his existence.You say JG and JC are corporeal. This means they have bodies made up of atoms. Or at least some kind of material that belongs to the 'time, energy and boundless space' that is the source of true power in your universe.Destroy 'time, energy and boundless space' and your Jehovah disappears along with your Jesus and everything else. They no longer have the materials they require for their existence.Time, Energy, and Space are your True Gods.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Genesis 1.1 says in the beginning God 'created the heavens.'You're saying he occupies one of the heavens and that this place had no beginning.__

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Who said anything about paganism? I am talking about that biblical model: the ancient picture of the cosmos that existed within Hebrew and Jewish culture and that the the Biblical writers put forth in their texts. It is essentially the same picture of the cosmos that existed among Christians for the first millennium and a half of the religion's existence.As your own Google search engine appears to be broken, let me share with you what I found about this biblical model of the universe.The Heavens - A PortraitThis is a picture drawn from Dante. Dante, a late medieval Christian, based his picture of the cosmos on the biblical model Christianity inherited from Judaism. He was very familiar with the canonical texts. The universe he described was one every educated person recognized.

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Dante's Universe

As you can see, the earth sits at the center of a series of spheres, or 'heavens.' These spheres move at different speeds and grow ever vaster the further away from earth you ascend. This model accounts for the relative motions of the planets. It was thought that the coordinated movements of all the heavens resulted in a vast music that only God and the angels could hear. This is what Chrisitan poets referred to as 'the music of the spheres.'As you can see, a circular earth sits at the center of the cosmos, 'suspended on nothing.'During most of the ancient ages that correspond to the writing of the Hebrew Scriptures, people generally counted seven heavens. By the time Christianity arrived every educated person knew that nine heavens, or spheres, existed.The heavens, in order from bottom to top:

9. Prime Mover (the main gear, as it were)
8. Fixed Stars
7. Saturn
6. Jupiter
5. Mars
4. Sun
3. Venus
2. Mercury
1. Moon

The top heaven, the Prime Mover, was known by Christians as the 'Crystalline' spehere. They knew its appearance to be glass-like based on the information they gleaned from the throne scene in the Book of Revelation. The Prime Mover of the cosmos was powered by angels.Christian scholars, working from their New Testament texts, developed further the idea of the tenth heaven you see at the top. In Judaism this had usually been referred to as 'God's heaven' or 'the heaven above all the heavens.' The Christians called it the Empyrean Realm. Unlike the lower heavens this realm was eternal and unlimited. This was the realm inhabited by the Trinity and the locale of the heavenly Paradise. Put a throne up there and the earth would indeed function as God's 'footstool.'In this picture the earth is shown upside-down. Jerusalem's Temple Mount actually sits at the top/center of the earth's surface. Here it appears at the bottom so the artist can show you Purgatory.The souls of wicked people on our side of the earth descend after death into an ever-narrowing Hell. This ends in earth's core where the Devil, 'the lord of this world', has his seat.More righteous souls continue past this. In reference to earth, as they go down they actually ascending to the surface of the opposite hemisphere. This is Purgatory--a seven-story mountain on the opposite side of the world from the Jerusalem Temple Mount.Once a soul reaches the top of the mountain of Purgatory, it is ready for its ascent through the heavens. Angels escort the soul skyward through an ever expanding series of skies/heavens/spheres until the soul at last reaches the throne of God.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : brevity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : detail.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Paul does speak of a 'third heaven' but nowhere says how many heavens there are. He didn't have to because his contemporaries already knew.According to the model of the cosmos that prevailed in Paul's day (and in many centuries before and after), the planets occupied seven heavens. Beyond this lay the fixed stars, the angels, and the throne of God.The third heaven was the sphere of Venus. [See chart, Message 42]Paul of Tarsus would have attached no significance to the Roman association of this planet with a goddess. The Jews recognized this planet as the brightest star in the sky, the herald of both daybreak and nightfall. They called it by its most ancient name: 'the morning and the evening star.'Sound familiar?The Morning and the Evening Star is one of the titles given to Christ in the Book of Revelation. Paul's mystical ascent to the third rung of the heavenly ladder would signify a special encounter with this being.Ascending the ladder to this third heaven also has the effect of placing one just short of the sun itself. An exalted perch--and as high as any mortal could expect to ascend in the flesh.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : clarity.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

I am sorry you find this information unwelcome. But you cannot blame inconvenient facts on Constantine and ignore them. As I told you, this model of the universe pre-existed Christianity by centuries. It, or something very similar to it, was the prevailing belief in all ancient cultures.Everything Bible authors say about the universe corresponds with the views held in their day.You are suggesting that the biblical writers espoused modern ideas about the cosmos. You are saying that, centuries before these ideas emerged in science, these people held a heliocentric idea of the solar system and knowledge of the sun's placement on an arm of the Milky Way galaxy. And you would have us believe that these extremely advanced, totally anachronistic ideas about the cosmos were deliberately suppressed by the first Christian emperor of Rome because he wanted to appease pagans.This is a fanciful suggestion, to say the least.No historical records support this fantasy. That includes the biblical texts themselves. If you will bother to read the information I shared with you in Message 42 you will see a number of ways the biblical writers took for granted, and sometimes influenced, archaic ideas about the cosmos. These ancient ideas are the biblical model.What you have not shown us is where 'Jesus and the writers of the NT as well as the OT' ever spoke of an ionosphere, menosphere, and troposphere and the other modern concepts you claim to find in their work.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Give Buz credit for at least proposing something falsifiable. His godlet's loft apartment--complete with furniture, pets and entourage--should be visible to the Hubble Space Telescope. Buz even knows which sector of the sky to sweep.Any figure spotted on the godlet's right would be Jesus. Expect him to be browsing office furniture catalogs in preparation for his big promotion. (Dad promised him a gig as mayor of Jerusalem.)___Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.Edited by Archer Opterix, : messing around.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

double postEdited by Archer Opterix, : seeing double.Edited by Archer Opterix, : ditched the sig.