I'm trying: to repent?

Proposed as an offshoot from the thread "I'm trying: a stairway to heaven?" Jar and myself had gotten into a discussion about repentance and what that entails. This within a broader discussion as to whether salvation is a function of 'how hard I try' This thread would be aimed at discussing what repentance is, both generally and within the overall context of forgiveness of sins and salvation. I've already agreed that the above steps are central elements in the process of repentance. I disagree that repentance is an internal, private subject and hold that repentance necessarily involves expression of the above elements externally: to the person who has or is being affected by your behavior.Take a look at the last element mentioned by Jar. Actually trying to do better. Genuine repentance will truly want to turn away from a particular behaviour and must, in order to be considered genuine, employ all available means to achieve that goal. External repentance thus, is a necessity.External repentance adds a new dimension to proceedings. External repentance means acknowledging bad behaviour to the offended party, acknowledging the hurt caused, acknowledging sorrow felt, acknowledging a commitment to cease and desist. Promising to do better.By doing so, the offender empowers the repentance process. The offended is given a chance to flesh out the true consequences of the behaviour. The chances of 'doing better' can only be enabled if one knows what activites will lead to doing better. Only external repentance can provide that informationBy 'going public', the offender leaves himself open to external observation as to his attempts to do better. Actions which the offender may not see as being part of the bad behaviour can be pointed out as being precursors to more serious lapses.An external observer can also encourage and confirm that the behaviour is in fact improving and possibly offset the danger of trying too hard and going too far ...to the point where it all comes crashing down again. External encouragement is a powerful support to anyone trying to rehabilitate themselvesOne aspect of repentance is attempting to achieve a goal: turning away from a particular behavior. Internal-repentance-only, fails to employ the fullest measure of what is available to achieve the goal it sets itself. (not least the offended getting being able define and limit the terms of reference). One would have to question the genuineness of a repentance that refuses to employ all that would help it achieve its aim(one for F&B I reckon)

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

those steps are pretty much what i always heard. yes external is good, but not necessary. and some things... well for one, you can't make amends to the dead.sometimes it is more productive to change your heart than to try to mend a bridge. you have a responsibility to apologize when you have wronged someone, but sometimes, they simply won't accept you or listen to you or anything. thus, your confessor is god and not the one you wronged.

I disagree that the external part is included or even needed in repentance. To confess what you have done may well be good, but it is a separate issue from repentance.If you would like to include confession in our discussion I have no problem as long as it is recognized as a separate act and process.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

precisely. the problem is that there are two very different philosophies stated in the bible. one says that 'if you believe with your heart and profess with your mouth'. the other says to hide in your closet and pray to your god.you see. the idea is supposed to be that god loves all kinds of people. jesus loved thomas who was very 'scientific' and demanded precision and proof. he provided this proof without thomas having to ask because he knew his servant and had called him as he was. (i quit going to church after i went to a service where the preacher badmouthed thomas and called him a fool because we should believe and not demand anything. it made me sick. ask arach, he went with me.) god loves people who feel the need to share with others and god loves people who are filled with guilt and shame and need to take their hearts into seclusion to clense them. that's the point. he provides everything to everyone no matter their issues. he gives the talkers a gift they can share with others and he gives the lonely a lover who will never hurt them.

A practical outworking of repentance is trying to do better in the future. Confession is a by-product, not the primary aim of the issues I raised in the OP which had to do with aspects which could be expected to enhance the 'trying to do better' part of repentance. If trying to do better was a true goal then this approach is an obvious step to take: expose oneself to the results of ones behaviour, reap a little of what was sown - as it were.If one is not prepared to reap what one sows here then there is less of a spur not to sow it again. Its always going to be easier to behave badly again if one's stragegy is to duck out of facing the consequences full on.

I found two interesting links. One dealing with repent and one dealing with confession. Brain at work! Repent, What Does It MeanIf we take away the English word repent and use the meaning of the word used, it gives us more food for thought. I'm working through what is being said, but I did notice that the word translated repent is only used once by Paul in 2 Corinthians. Unfortunately this use doesn't seem to fit with the change of mind or emotion presented in the link. Clarification on ConfessionI'm still thinking on this one.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

Confession is all that is involved in the portion of the OP that deals with external objects. It has nothing that I can see to do with the act of repentance.Granted, confession is another tool that is useful, I would say necessary, in the Christian method, but it is no more repentance than is ammendment.But to try to move this forward, let's consider for a moment the acts or repentance, confession and ammendment.The steps in repentance were laid out originally in message 203 of the other thread.Confession is reciting what it is to the person harmed.Ammendment is trying to reverse the harm that was done.Is there anything in any of those three acts that requires a belief in a deity?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Celebrate Recovery is a proven Christian 12 step program that incorporates Biblical principles into the secular 12 step model. I disagree with Jar in that we are not often able to "will"our behaviors to change. Ask anyone who has ever stopped smoking if they were simply able to decide to quit and through sheer self will did so.
Some may make that claim, but many more would admit that the addiction had them. One must look to a greater power than the addiction. Ok,Ok, it is the map but what territory are we in? do we will and act towards our own good purpose or is it the Holy Spirit living within us? Any really good advice that I give or thing that I do is only because of God...not my own "cool" behavior or effort.

Interesting link on repentance PD which I reckon is well worth a through reading Although there is more to be investigated, in principle I couldn't agree more I wouldn't see a big problem here. Paul elsewhere exhorts those in Christ to turn from sin, pointing out to them the incompatibility of sin in their lives w.r.t. their position in Christ. He gives the person the necessary logical explaination which would enable them to change their minds - to change ones minds requires a reason to do so afterall. Given the ugliness of sin, he mourns that despite his efforts to enable a change, some haven't actually changed their minds about sin.Changing ones mind about sin is simply to come see it for what it actaully is. To no more let ourselves of the hook with a myriad of excuses and get-outs: "ah sure, I just slipped. I am human afterall - what else is a man to do". To change ones mind about sin is to see it in a different light. To see it as as something ugly and offensive to God. And damaging to us and others.Not necessary for salvation I agree, but necessary all the same

If I may I'd hold off on belief in a deity for the moment as we need to try and work out whether repentance necessitates involvement with the offended . Going with your steps as being a working definition with which I agree, I am endeavoring to investigate and tease out those steps. One that I focussed on in the OP is the "trying to do better" bit. I'm trying to showing it must be externalised.I was asking what steps can be taken to empower 'trying to do better' to the full (on the assumption that you would agree that the trying element is not trying if it ducks various means by which trying is enabled.- external confession ("I did it but is what I did the full extent? If I knew the full extent of my offence then it would be an impetus to my trying harder")- acknowledgement of hurt ("I realise and have thought through what my actions meant to you - but that's my opinion - you have more insight into the hurt I caused you than I. If I knew the full extent of your hurt it would sear me all the more and help me try harder")- apology ("I am sorry but if you show me the exent of what I did then I would likely be more sorrowful. Sorrow isn't nice so the more sorrowful I am the more likely I would be to try and avoid actions which would cause sorrow to be awakened)My question Jar. If there is much to be gained by externalising things w.r.t. trying harder then trying harder necessarily demands externalising. If externalising is avoided then the trying is not actually trying. Trying doesn't mean avoiding. It means trying.This message has been edited by iano, 14-Nov-2005 12:10 PM

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I wouldn't see a big problem here. Paul elsewhere exhorts those in Christ to turn from sin,

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My comment concerning 2 Corintians was in relation to the author of the links explanation of the meaning of the Greek word translated repent. (This is when I wish I was better at foreign languages.)I'm curious how it would be translated if the single meaning of "change your mind" was used. The word translated as "of" seems to have better possibilities to support the single meaning of "change your mind". In the book "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren stresses on day 23 the need to change our minds or attitudes to influence our actions, which is what Paul supports as you mentioned. God speaks to Ezekiel concerning our change of attitudes and actions. I don't see that any of this supports the need to declare one's change of mind to anyone else though. The resulting actions that follow the mind change will speak for themselves. If the actions don't change, then the mind didn't either.

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Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor Roosevelt-

I still do not think that any of those have anything to do with repentance. They are Confession and Atonement. Repentance is by it's very nature internal.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

People apparently needed and got, from Paul, a reason to change their minds. No one changes their mind without a reason. And Pauls reasoning is external to them. A person is dependent on the externalAs with repentance. Some data is required to change the mind about a particular behaviour. The data can be self-derived but is by nature more limited and more prone to inaccuracy than a 'truer' form of data. In the case of the church in Rome it was the authorititiveness of apostolic teaching. In the case of bad bahaviour to neighbour it is utilising the affected neighbours input in your thinking.To go it alone may be a form of repentance but it is a weakened version compared to what is possible. Reference to the external offers potential for a mind change that solely internal means never can.And if one genuinely was trying to do better, one would give oneself the best chance of doing so

Call them what you will. The question stands: Try harder is on the list of essential elements involved in repentance. But if steps which will help avoid the behaviour won't be taken how can this be called trying harder? Thats what we're here to look at