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Author Topic:   Anti-theistic strawmen?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 49 of 145 (425263)
10-01-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
09-29-2007 8:31 PM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
This is faulty logic though on the part of Dawkins. Would the eradication of faith (something he uses daily, btw) really tip the scales of justice, so to speak? You don't see that as a hopelessly naive notion, especially in light of innumerable instances where the eradication of religion ended in total catastrophe?
Certainly in the examples we have of FORCED eradication of faith we see catastrophe but if you look at those cases they have more to do with the fact that a governing body was forcing people to do ANYTHING not just tear down religious institutions.
If you really get familiar with Dawkins argument, he and others such as Sam Harris are NOT advocating for an institutionalized rejection of religion at all. The whole point is to get people to personally reject dogmatism. They are advocating for culture change. Only Harris seems to go a bit farther calling for a "conversational intollerance" for religious ideas as it comes to making policy decisions.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-29-2007 8:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 50 of 145 (425264)
10-01-2007 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
09-28-2007 4:19 PM


are you then willing to defend the idea that atheistic or non-theistic nationalism can't breed the same thing? or that any variety of mobilizing political or social factor couldn't breed the same thing? humans are capable of being polarized and radicalized and those who seek power will utilize this no matter what mobilizing phychology or theology or whatever they choose to use.
In fact, Dawkins and Harris both argue this exact point in the Beyond Belief videos that Percy posted awhile back.
This issue is that there may be multiple sources for social irrationality and that we should be working to reject ALL of them. Religion just happens to be ONE of them that through the ages has consistently been used to motivate populations to reject reason.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-28-2007 4:19 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Chiroptera, posted 10-01-2007 5:33 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 51 of 145 (425268)
10-01-2007 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
09-30-2007 12:21 AM


Re: Zeal - religious or non-religious fervor
Collectively, atheist despots have over 100 million slain. Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Mao Tse-Tung, just to name the most prolific. And this all within less than a 100 year period.
I'd say that's a pretty significant tally, wouldn't you?
There are already a number of people speaking up about the validity of this.
My question to you is how can you count those a "tallies" toward atheism? Were these deaths done, "In the Name of (insert non-god here)"?
The more reasonable answer is that these deaths are a result of oppressive regimes of political power. Just because those regimes also rejected religion does not make them representative of what the OP is talking about.
Prominent anti-theists are not calling for oppression of religion. They are calling for a shift away from the thinking that empowers religion when it comes to making decisions that weigh in on the longevity and success of our society.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-30-2007 12:21 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 53 of 145 (425272)
10-01-2007 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Modulous
10-01-2007 12:51 PM


Re: treating childish theism as theism = strawman
True enough. Are these kinds of arguments put forward by the public figures of anti-theism, or would you say that it was limited to discussion at a more 'grass roots' level?
This is one of the BIGGEST problems I have with the likes of Dawkins on this issue. Was it Dawkins that said something like, "Most people are atheists with respect to all the other gods who have existed, some just go 1 god further"?
Comparing the God of Abraham to Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, etc is not a good argument simply because there are vastly different reasons for why people reject those figures.
The reason crashfrog rejects Zeus and the reason Buzsaw rejects Zeus are different. Crashfrog would probably say he rejects Zeus because there is zero evidence for the existence of Zeus. He may even go into some dialogue about the god-of-the-gaps and how Zeus used to fill in the gap in our knowledge about where lightning came form.
Buzsaw however, I would expect to denounce Zeus moreso because his religion teaches him to! One of the commandments of his faith is to reject all other deities. He may somewhat agree with crashfrog in assuming that it is silly to believe in Zeus, but fundamentally, they are coming from almost complete opposite directions in their disbelief in Zeus.
If I misreprested Buzsaw or crashfrog I appologize. You can easily substitute their names for "stereotypical christian/atheist".

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Modulous, posted 10-01-2007 12:51 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 4:00 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 10-01-2007 8:59 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 57 of 145 (425282)
10-01-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by crashfrog
10-01-2007 4:00 PM


Re: treating childish theism as theism = strawman
So I would say that Buz and I reject Santa Claus for the exact same reason. Indeed, the reason I don't believe in God is the same reason Buz doesn't believe in Santa (unless Buz is a curmugeon who swore off belief in Santa because he didn't get that sled, that one year.)
I think there is some kind of rediculousness threshold that a mystical idea needs to reach before it can't become easily dismissed. Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy both fail to meet this threshold. The God of the Bible does.
What I guess I am trying to say is that it is still different. God and Santa ARE different mythical figures with different levels of believability. One of the big differences, and what I was really trying to point out in the last post, is that the Bible has built in anti-skepticism tenents for which dogmatic believes reference.
Buz will likely disavow Zeus BECAUSE the Bible says so.
Buz will likely dismiss a comparison between Santa and God BECAUSE the Bible says so.
The point is simply that anti-theists get absolutly nowhere by making these comparisons because they are basing their argument on the thought that their opponents are coming to their religious decision by way of reason. They simply are not. They reject these comparisons as a matter of faith.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 4:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 5:20 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 60 of 145 (425305)
10-01-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by crashfrog
10-01-2007 5:20 PM


Re: treating childish theism as theism = strawman
No, they're not at all different. They're precisely the same.
From your eloquent and objective perspective, sure they are. Believers are not being objective. Thats the point.
Jazzns previously writes:
One of the big differences, and what I was really trying to point out in the last post, is that the Bible has built in anti-skepticism tenents for which dogmatic believes reference.
So does Santa. "How does he get around the world in just one night?" "Reindeer magic." "Why does the Santa down at the mall have straps running from his beard?" "He's just one of Santa's helpers, but talking to him is just like talking to Santa."
The only difference is that the anti-skepticism protection is calibrated for children, whereas the ASP in religion has a little something for everyone.
I think the big difference though is in how abstract the ASP is. "Reindeer magic" is just a mystical answer to a mystcal problem. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", and, "whosoever believith in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" are constraints on faith propositions that help a believer GENERALLY reject criticisms from the standpoint you are coming from.
Similarly, it's abundantly obvious that God - all gods - are a myth that we, as a society, decided to create for adults. The reason Buz doesn't believe in Santa Claus - who is not mentioned in the Bible at all, contrary to your assertion - is the exact same reason I don't believe in God. (Or Santa.)
First off, I never claimed the Bible talks about Santa. The Bible does however instruct believers to reject other forms of mysticism, and that there is a Truth (tm) seperate from all other forms of mysticism. Moreover, it teaches that assults upon that Truth (tm) should be considered confirmation of it. That is a much more sophisticated "ASP" than a one-off mystical response such as "reindeer magic".
Second, you are correct in your analysis that Buz may reject Santa for the same reason but that was not my point. Buz will reject the comparison because he is anti-skeptical BECAUSE of his religion. I mentioned that Buz may be more sympathetic to the example of obvious fairy tails such as Santa Clause, but when it comes to other figures in the category of Supreme Being, the situation immediatly returns to what I was describing before where the rejection occurs for primarily for religious reasons rather than rational ones.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 5:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 7:21 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 61 of 145 (425308)
10-01-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Chiroptera
10-01-2007 5:33 PM


It's the idea that some irrational faith-based beliefs are supposed to have some sort of protected status.
That is probably a better reason to single out religion for all other forms of dogmatism although I think a case could be made for the severity as well.
Other forms of dogma (tribalism, nationalism, racism, etc) are also sources of much grief, but none of them have done as much harm generally throughout history than religion.
Sam Harris comes at it from the perspective of why religion is even allowed to the table in adult conversations about policy let alone be given some kind of protected status. This is especially true when it gets in the way of progress (civil rights, stem cell research, etc).

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Chiroptera, posted 10-01-2007 5:33 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 64 of 145 (425360)
10-01-2007 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
10-01-2007 7:21 PM


Re: treating childish theism as theism = strawman
Jazzns previously writes:
Buz will likely dismiss a comparison between Santa and God BECAUSE the Bible says so.
Is a far cry from saying that the Bible talks about Santa Clause. The point here is mysticism and other religious figures. The Bible directs believers to reject other religions and other Gods.
How can the Bible refute Santa Claus when he's a saint of the Catholic Church? You seem to have completely ignored that point.
...
The Bible doesn't have anything to do with it. How could it? Santa Claus is a saint of the Catholic Church.
Forget about Santa Clause. It is just an example. My broader point is about rejection of OTHER dogma because the religion says so. Not because it is rational to do so.
Did you really miss that? Was I that bad about communicating that broader idea? Seriously?
Is what I am saying that contentious?
Nonetheless, he's going to reject Santa Claus for precisely the same reason I reject his god. Case closed.
I'll give you Santa Clause. That was probably a bad example. A better example would probably be Vishnu. It is my position that a true believer will likely not reject the existence of Vishnu based on the "at face" absurdity of the concept of Vishnu. Many will claim that Vishnu is pagan, maybe even a demon. They will reject Vishnu on religion grounds, not rational ones. Certainly not the same grounds that YOU probably reject Vishnu.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 7:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 11:11 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 66 of 145 (425377)
10-02-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by crashfrog
10-01-2007 11:11 PM


Re: treating childish theism as theism = strawman
Have you ever actually seen Christians argue with members of other religions? Even they know that an argument like "your religion is wrong because mine says so" is pretty intellectually unfulfilling. Pop around a few apologetics websites and you can see how it goes down. Arguments from Scripture are fairly rare, except for the argument that goes "the Bible is better than your holy book because of more fulfilled prophecy" etc, because even a Christian can put themselves in another person's shoes and understand that an argument based on the assumed inerrancy of another religion's holy text isn't likely to be compelling.
We may simply be debating based on different personal experiences here. If you took a samples and categorized all Christian responses to other religious figures I have absolutely no idea how it would turn out. All I am saying is that based on MY experience, what you are claiming does not seem to be true. Christians DO frequently source the innerancy of the Bible as a justification for existence of God. I'll grant you that they ALSO use the arguments you list in support. In both fundie and non-fundie experiences in my church-going days it was the same.
That being said, you seem to be approaching the issue for a different direction than I am. It may be true that in a case of proselytizing they might try to "ease" a person into religion by way of psudo-objective reasoning. What I have been trying to talk about though is a Christian response to the atheistic criticism that their faith is on par with that of all other "blatant" absurd mythologies.
The correlation is not drawn between Zeus and Christ. The argument is ineffective. And I think it is because of an inability to apply reason to the comparison.
Let me see if you at least agree with this. True or False, they are rejecting the comparison base on rational reasons. If false, what are the likely alternatives?
It's just not true, Jazzns. That's not at all how other people defend themselves against other religions. That's not at all how they argue about it. Even the deeply religious see that, in order to proselytize, they need more than circular reasoning. "Because the Pope said so" is an argument that is only convincing once you're a Catholic. Even the Catholics understand that. They're not idiots.
Like I said above, granting that the name of the game is different when trying to convince someone else to join the dark side. That is not the same thing as defending God against the claim that He is the same as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
On one hand you get a cheery bright monologue of the benefits of religion and how the love of Jesus changed their lives. On the other you get HEAPS and barrels of apologetics about the supposed differences between the "absurd" god and their God. Where does that come from? I think it comes from their faith and their belief in the tenets of their religion that expressly command them to reject such comparison as a matter OF that faith.
I am not saying that you are wrong about the many other types of apologetics used. I just think the root of it is not simply denial of the reason to reject the supernatural at face value. Like you said, in many cases they are not idiots.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 11:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by crashfrog, posted 10-02-2007 1:24 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
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