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Author Topic:   Adam & Eve to be blamed, or god!
Phat
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Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 79 of 117 (131549)
08-08-2004 8:44 AM


My 2 cents
Hey there, y'all. Just up early pokin around on the computer....hmmmm whats up at EvC? The old Adam, Eve, Good/Evil tree thing and the definition of God....so here is my 2 cents:
To begin with, I define God as incapable of imperfection. God never created evil. He created a freewill Lucifer who chose to become an egomaniac like the majority of intellectuals running around to and fro on the third rock from the sun. Lucifer was allowed to exist, however. Thus, in that sense, it may be Gods fault that we are not perfect. How do you blame a Creator? The very action speaks volumes of your own ego.
Intellectual Atheist writes:
(Talking to the air) Hey you there! I can prove that you are not all that! Don't blame me for rebellion...you gave me free will!!!
If you are so mighty and powerful, show yourself because I don't even believe that you exist! Pesky ignorant Christian fundies, anyway! What I don't understand is why I stay around to argue with them!
We cannot say that Adam and Eve were mere innocent babies in the sense of how we understand reality now. In the context of the story, there was but one reality before Original Sin. We now have another reality.
Before Sin: Door #1 only. Gods way.
After Disobedience: Many doors, many perspectives, many options. Lost sight of Door #1, though. Then came Jesus. Door#1 is back!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 84 of 117 (131860)
08-09-2004 11:43 AM


Humanity writes the words, so is God responsible?
It is interesting when you get into the arguments and theories concerning the meaning of the OT and of who wrote Genesis, why they wrote it, and to whom it was written. Wycliffes Bible Commentary says this about Genesis:
The discovery in modern times of such ancient records as the Amarna Letters, the Ugaritic (or Ras Shamra) literature, and the clay tablets from Mesopotamia (Mari and Nuzu), has enabled scholars to reconstruct the historical and cultural background of the Biblical record, and to discover what life was like in Egypt, Palestine, and Mesopotamia during the Biblical epoch. Very likely many oral and written records, reaching far back into antiquity, were available to the distinguished Hebrew scholar, whose Egyptian schooling and whose graduate study in the region of Mount Sinai made him aware of significant world movements. According to Jewish tradition, when the great scribe Ezra came back from Babylonia to Jerusalem, bringing the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament, he set to work with prodigious energy preserving, copying, and editing the old materials in his possession.(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)
From a Dispensationalist perspective, Judaism began with the giving of the Law in Exodus. Thus, Genesis was recorded by Jews who had just incorporated their existance as Jews in relationship to Yahweh. Notice the people that were building the ziggurat in Mesopotamia:
NIV writes:
Gen 11:1-9 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel--because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world.
Well, we know Mesopotamia from studies to be a culture of pessimistic, brooding, often conquered people. When this part of Genesis was written, it was written as from the perspective of one who was there. Of course the world around this individual had a common language, until more and more nomads passing through were drawn to this building project and the languages became muddled. Interesting from a perspective of how cultures relate to each other. Languages are different for the same reason that teenagers have a slang all their own....they want to make themselves a seperate identity from that of their parental culture around them. Ok, Rrhain, getting back on topic, if we assume that this OT God is actually real, which of course I do, we must look into the context of the verses which you quoted.
NIV writes:
Isa 45:1"This is what the LORD says to his anointed,(...)Isa 45:7- I form the light and create darkness,I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Was the author God or man? Certainly, a man wrote this. So was he inspired? This brings up issue #1:
Is the issue black and white? Are humans either inspired supernaturally by a preeminant and Monotheistic Holy Spirit...or not?
Many who argue against this supposition claim that human inspiration is very much a relative concept. Perhaps this claim could be reinforced by Genesis 1:11 since languages were increasingly diversified, perhaps cultures and groups of civilized people were distancing themselves one from another and, fittingly, showing different forms of inspiration. This brings up issue#2:
Are we to believe that Biblical Israel was inspired by a unique source of inspiration apart from their own relative culture?
Well, we know what the Bible says about this. The author of Isaiah seems to believe in the same God that the author(s) of Job believed in. Job talks of God talking to Satan, allowing Satan to mess up Jobs life. Notice how the author is careful to explain that it was not Gods fault.
NIV writes:
Job 1:20-2:1At this,(the destruction of his property and death of his kids) Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
Are the authors of these verses inspired by God or not?
Now on to Ezekiel 20:25 The author is transcribing how God is relating to His people, Israel.
Job was a blameless man who suffered what one witness said was the fire of God from above, while the author points out that God allowed Satan to wreak destruction.
In Exekiel, the destruction occurred because the people were trying to worship whatever they wanted to worship and party it up rather than relate to God.
NIV writes:
Ezek 20:20-26 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God.But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws-although the man who obeys them will live by them-and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes [lusted] after their fathers' idols. I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts-the sacrifice of every firstborn-that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
This brings us back to square one. Is the human author making up a God so as to control the people with fear? Some would suggest this, while others would stick to the premise that the author was inspired to write what was written for altruistic motives.
Is the inspiration of writing a relative concept? Is inspiration a spiritual reality? Is Spirit absolute, or relative?
Some believe that God is invented by man as a product of our imaginations, be the motive altruistic or be it manipulative. Others believe that God is, Himself, the source of inspiration and that basically reality is either His way or our own way.
Back to square one, is reality defined as In the Beginning, God created or is it defined as In the beginning, man wrote...?
Were the authors inspired by a source apart from their own imaginations?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-09-2004 11:02 AM

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 86 of 117 (131983)
08-09-2004 3:34 PM


How can I explain current dualistic reality?
jar writes:
You have still not answered the question, "What is evil about the knowledge of good and evil?"
Well, first of all we must ask ourselves what the ramifications of this "awareness" really are?
My Belief involves several preconceptions. First, the source of all creativity, evolution, and progressive regeneration originates from God. The alternative view is that a spontaneously regenerating universe need not have a God or gods as sources. From a thinking mind, then, all postulates are formed. We in essence are our own source. Humanity teaches humanity. Yoda
seems much more plausible than Jesus Christ.
Order and Hierarchy have always been part of what allows systems such as armies and governments to function. To me, God is the only source, and to be enticed by any alternative is not only un necessary but ultimately unprofitable. To an atheist, my aversion to autonomy is their attraction! They live to be free and be unshackled.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 90 of 117 (132243)
08-10-2004 2:49 AM


God wants our undivided attention
postmaster1000 writes:
The knowledge of good and evil (KGE) lets you determine if any given action is good or evil. Gaining KGE is an action. Is gaining KGE good or evil? Personally, I can't see where KGE alone is either evil or good.
Several points that I want to address.. First of all, none of us can comprehend what the lack of such knowledge would feel like. We DO know from the commandments that God wants our undivided attention.
Matt 22:35-39 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
It seems as if the knowledge of evil would thus mean the awareness of competition for Gods attention. Its kinda like if you were married, and your wife was the jealous type. You may claim that the action of simply looking at and talking with other women in the neighborhood was not a wrong or improper thing to do, but the fact is that 1)Your wife would be angry, and (2), you would be tempted to pay less attention to her. If there is any truth to the idea that the KGE a bad idea, it would stem from violating the greatest commandment of paying full attention and committment to God.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 92 of 117 (132298)
08-10-2004 7:55 AM


Why were the Commandments given?
You are correct. According to Legend, which, if you remember, is defined as
a story coming down from the past; esp : one popularly accepted as historical though not verifiable
The early Bible described a time of many cultures all seeking identity. (Genesis 1:11) The Jewish people found God, or rather, He found them.
(I know that most of you won't believe this! Others, who also claim to have found God, DO believe this!) These people wanted to know what they must do. As Legend has it, God gave them a set of laws because they wanted to do something that made them worthy of Him. They not only had ten primary ones, but hundreds of other minor jots and tittles.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 95 of 117 (132380)
08-10-2004 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by portmaster1000
08-10-2004 10:12 AM


Re: God wants our undivided attention
postmaster1000 writes:
So does a pre-KGE Adam have any capacity to love God? I don't have any proof but I've always assumed love = good.
There are several interesting angles here:
1)Indeed, does a pre-KGE Adam have any option NOT to love God, at least not with all his heart, soul, and mind?(evidently, yes.) Did the pre-KGE Adam have good? If good=love, did he have love for God? Evidently not, for he got booted from the garden. Many argue that he was an innocent baby. Kinda like if your baby spilled the milk, you threw him out the door! Innocence implies lack of knowledge, however. I would argue that Adam and his wife(pre KGE version 1.0) had no lack of knowledge. After all, they named the flippin animals,right? Question#1: What did they lack?(pre-KGE)
The snake promised them that they would be like god IF...If your wife told you that she did not want you to talk to other women, would you listen?
2)Note the word, capacity. If we are to believe that Adam+Eve pre KGE were perfect, it follows that they must have been fully equipped...or, in other words, filled to capacity. They lacked nothing. Jesus said that Satan had nothing in him. Why? Because Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. He passed his temptation tests, while pre KGE Adam failed. If both were perfect, whats the diff?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-10-2004 01:05 PM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 99 of 117 (133088)
08-12-2004 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by lfen
08-11-2004 7:22 PM


Re: How can I explain current dualistic reality?
So we are suggesting pantheism rather than dualism? BTW, Christianity is Monotheistic. The devil is not a co-deity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 7:22 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by lfen, posted 08-12-2004 4:13 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 101 of 117 (133118)
08-12-2004 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by lfen
08-12-2004 4:13 AM


Re: How can I explain current dualistic reality?
OK...I respect that. I am not one of those fanatics who think that everyone needs to see things my way. I trust that God will show ALL of us where we were, where we are, and where we are going!
Personally, I am a believer in Biblical scripture. I have seen the sites that espouse scriptural inconsistancies and errors, and I have read them. I was going to look up all of the references and attempt to explain some of them, but I am too lazy! Some of the scriptural inconsistencies cannot be ignored, but just as the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater, the Bible should not be thrown out, either. What would a Christian have left, except vague Spiritual experience? Yes, I guess that I am too cowardly to jump to another belief paradigm! Plus, I truly DO love Jesus and I believe in Him. Why are you a fan of Buddhism? Is it the kinder, gentler alternative??
BTW..check this out:http://christian-philosopher.com/...icalInconsistencies.html
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-12-2004 04:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by lfen, posted 08-12-2004 4:13 AM lfen has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 105 of 117 (135709)
08-20-2004 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Rrhain
08-20-2004 6:37 AM


Re: God wants our undivided attention
Rrhain writes:
And the snake was right. They became as gods precisely as the snake said they would.
So now, we need to define "gods". The Bible apologist would imply that God does not equal "god or "gods."
The spirit of the snake would disagree. We could reinterpret ye shall be as gods. The meaning would in essence become "you will wannabe".
Rrhain writes:
Just because they would become as gods does not mean they had a desire to do so.
No, they merely had a desire for freewill.
Perhaps they disobeyed, but is obedience contrary to freewill?(I am a theist, remember. I am playing devils advocate, here.(snakes advocate???) Pre KGE Adam lacked only one thing. the desire to be. The desire to exist without holding Daddys hand. Apologists would say that this desire would equate to Lucifers mistake leading to his fall from heaven. He wanted to be like Daddy. Others would ask:
Whats so wrong with wanting freethinking independence? Comments?
BTW, we can only guess at the pre KGE mental state since we all are post KGE mental states.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-20-2004 07:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 107 of 117 (135889)
08-21-2004 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Rrhain
08-21-2004 12:57 AM


Re: God wants our undivided attention
Rrhain writes:
I thought they already had free will. After all, that's what sin is: Choosing freely to do what you know to be wrong.
Not quite. They did not realize that disobedience was wrong. They had no concept of what "wrong" was. All they knew was that God did not approve of it. After, seeing the resulting consequences such as:
1)Awareness of nakedness.
2)Shame.
3)Getting booted from the Garden
They then became as we are now. Aware of sin, free will, and decision making processes...yet being unsure of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2004 12:57 AM Rrhain has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 109 of 117 (135946)
08-21-2004 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Rrhain
08-21-2004 5:18 AM


Re: God wants our undivided attention
Rrhain writes:
Why would they be unsure of god?
Just as many skeptics are unsure of God today...of who or what He is...of which God is the real one...all of the controversy that is now wired into our human thought process since that Original Sin/multiple choice option became human....before KGE, there was NO doubt who God was, yet there was also no awareness of the dualistic realm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2004 5:18 AM Rrhain has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 111 of 117 (136156)
08-22-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Rrhain
08-22-2004 6:08 AM


Re: God wants our undivided attention
Rrhain writes:
There was no doubt about who god was because there was no comprehension of what god was.
As far as we can tell. I might remind you that our current mental and ethical state of reasoning may not be able to comprehend exactly how pre KGE thought processes worked,however.
Rrhain writes:
So how on earth could they sin?
Good point. I suppose at that point that sin=disobedience. Sin=separation.
You are saying, from what I gather, that a pre KGE Adam and Eve are not responsible for this sin, since they know nothing. From our post KGE reasoning standpoint, your answer is logical. Still, we do not know what pre KGE thought processes even feel like. Rrhain, you are even beginning to sound like a theist!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-22-2004 06:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2004 6:08 AM Rrhain has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 113 of 117 (138346)
08-31-2004 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rrhain
08-24-2004 4:49 AM


Adam+Eve: 2 God: infinity
innocent \-sent\ adj [ME, fr. MF, fr. L innocens, fr. nocens wicked, fr. nocere to harm] 1 : free from guilt or sin : blameless 2 : harmless in effect or intention; also : candid 3 : free from legal guilt or fault : lawful 4 : ingenuous 5 : unaware innocent n innocently adv
Websters defines innocent thusly. I maintain that Adam and Eve were free from guilt or sin,{Pre KGE) Yet the potential actions which they could cause made them capable of harm and bad intent.(both pre and post KGE) They were legally free of legal guilt or responsibility pre KGE, but were judged post KGE. Dare we judge Gods intentions? We do not know what the overall intentions are, but we had best strive for a full relationship with the Creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rrhain, posted 08-24-2004 4:49 AM Rrhain has replied

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 Message 114 by portmaster1000, posted 08-31-2004 2:18 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18354
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 115 of 117 (138559)
08-31-2004 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by portmaster1000
08-31-2004 2:18 PM


Re: Adam+Eve: 2 God: infinity
portmaster1000 writes:
What's your opinion on whether Adam and Eve were capable of love (or any other emotion) pre KGE.
You bring up some good points, and I will admit that I do not understand why God allowed KGE to happen. There is a parable or perhaps a warning for future generations in the story. If love is a mere emotion as opposed to an action backed by emotion, I maintain that pre KGE people would be clueless yet automatically empowered. I really don't know how they felt. There is some deep analogies connected with the pre/post KGE event. All animals became mean and naturally predatory. An entire planet now belongs to Satan, who previously did not control the spiritual atmosphere. Perhaps humanity can be found guilty yet blameless for Original Sin. The point is not that it was our fault.
The point is that there is a solution.

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 Message 114 by portmaster1000, posted 08-31-2004 2:18 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

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