Paul responds to me:
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Some good points are made. However, although research can be catagorized in the manner you have described, it is at the same time quite clear that all other species behavioral characteristics are seen as survivalistic actions.
Not at all.
Why do pretty much every other mammalian species engage in non-procreative sex?
There's a wonderful book you ought to read:
Biological Exuberance. It seems that not only do other animals engage in non-procreative sex, some animals mate for life with members of the same sex.
Of course, you still have the problem of trying to explain how one goes from "non-procreative sex is not a sin" to "therefore murder is not a sin."
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When a chimp takes another chimps food it has done so because it feels it needs to eat that food to survive, period.
Incorrect. When was the last time you watched chimpanzee troops?
Chimps will steal food from others simply because they don't like the others. Even when there is plenty of food to be had all around, sometimes one chimp decides he just doesn't like another and does things like steal his food, kick him out of nests, etc.
Depending on his place in the hierarchy, the aggrieved chimp can complain to the more senior members of the troop and they will punish the one who is tormenting the other.
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When a chimp responds to this other chimps action it's doing so because it feels it's survival is being threatened by the taking of its food.
Incorrect. When was the last time you observed chimpanzee troops?
Why would one troop engage in war with another troop when there is no conflict of territory, food, shelter, or mates?
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This cannot be catagorized as stealing and delivering punishment such as we do.
So why do the chimpanzees consider it stealing and punish the offender appropriately?
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Stealing within the human species however, is always done out of greed, laziness or for profit.
I see you haven't read
Les Misrables, either.
Humans also steal out of necessity, too.
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Indeed there are clinical and personal reasons for the multitudes of failures that we humans commit, with the question being why are we the only species to have these characteristics?
We aren't. Therefore, your entire argument fails.
Can you think of any particular reason of "necessity" for animals to commit rape, murder, theft, extortion or go to war? They do, after all. So since there isn't a single thing that humans do that animals don't do, by what justification do you draw a distinction?
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Why is there such a vast difference between us and all other species in this area?
There isn't.
It really is that simple. You are simply mistaken. Therefore, your entire line of reasoning is faulty.
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Why is it that I can break into my neighbours house and steal his $10,000 stereo set when I have one of my own at home?
Because you are physically capable of doing so and want to do so and have either determined that you will get away with it or do not care if you don't.
It's the same reasons chimpanzees do the same thing of stealing from their neighbors even though there is no need to do so.
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Why does the human species consistantly conceive things in their minds that go against conscience, and then futher, manifest those things through a blatant action?
For the same reasons that other animals do it: Because they can and want to.
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Am I to assume that you are saying it's the condition of the mind that dictates our every action? Is the mind the place that we "Know" or "Feel" ? or both? or neither?
Yes. Our neurological systems are quite complex and often we do things without conscious thought. For example, your heart is beating right now, but it isn't like you are consciously thinking out making it beat. But, your heart's beating is controlled by your brain.
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If I know something is wrong to do, can I go ahead and do it based on how I feel?
You do anyway, don't you?
You seem to have neglected the key component in my response to you.
Consent.
If what you are about to do affects someone else, do you have their consent to do so?
If X and Y are having sex, how does that affect Z?
Be specific.
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Where did this ability come from?
Our societal structure.
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I "know" it's wrong to steal my neighbours stereo, but, based on how I "feel" allows me to steal it?
Do you have your neighbor's consent?
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or even gives me the right to steal it?
Do you have your neighbor's consent?
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Why is it that one day I may steal something and the next day not?
Because one day you'll want to and the next day you won't.
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Why is it that the greater the value of something the greater the likelihood of me stealing it there is?
That you'll have to ask yourself. I don't see many people trying to steal nuclear weapons compared to, say, television sets despite the fact that nuclear weapons are much more valuable.
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Why would value mean anything to me anyways?
You're the one who brought it up. Why don't you tell me?
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I'm simply surviving am I not?
You might think you are, but you still haven't answered my question:
Do you have the consent of the person whose property you are taking?
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What told my mind to place such a value on things and then give liscence to steal them?
Lots of things. The value concept is most likely derived through social upbringing. That you think you have a license to steal can come through a whole bunch of sources. You'll have to ask yourself for the actual one.
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Is it an emotion that drives this?
Yes.
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If so what emotion is it then ?
Depends upon why you're stealing.
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For that matter where did emotions come from,
Your brain.
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and again, which one drives the stealing or say cold blooded murder action?
Lots of reasons. You'll have to ask yourself that since you're the one doing it. There is no single reason applicable to all cases.
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Why do we have all these emotions and all other species are basically void of them?
Because they're not and anybody who thinks they don't simply hasn't done much observation of animals.
Have you ever had cats? Ever go away for a long time? How did they react when you came back?
My cat was a clingy type. If I were to go away for a week, he'd immediately run back to me when I came home. I got him from the pound so maybe he had some abandonment issues, but that's the way he was. He loved you, he loved me, he loved linoleum. You're back! Pet me!
My best friend's cat, however, held a grudge. She went away to college and when she went home, her cat wouldn't talk to her for a week. He was a very friendly cat, but he was not happy with her for going away.
Now, please explain this behaviour without invoking the concept of emotion in felines.
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When a mentally handicapped person commits a crime we blame their mind and their handicap.
But animals are not mentally handicapped.
There is a difference between being incapable of comprehending actions such as one might find in certain forms of mental defect and not being as sophisticated in ones mental processes.
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If an intelligent, physically fit person commits a crime what does that say about the condition of their mind or their personality?
In and of itself? Very little. It depends upon the circumstances in which the crime was committed.
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Thought is the process by which we live. Every decision and then action that is made, begins with a thought process.
You mean when I tap that spot right below your knee with a hammer, it's a conscious thought process that makes your leg twitch?
Sounds an awful lot like you're about to say that humans don't have instincts.
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What gaurds the thought process from presumptuous error?
Other thought processes.
Specifics of morality need to be taught.
Why do you think it is not ok to be polygamous in our culture but it is ok to be polygamous in other cultures?
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The conscience, which is the birthplace of emotions.
Which is a mental process.
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But what if the conscience fails?
I guess in your case, it leads to gay people being used as a warning sign for serial killers.
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How could this unseen conscience have developed that can be more powerful than the mind?
Because humans are animals and animals have instincts and behave on those instincts.
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And since it is more powerful than the mind how is it then possible to err with it in place?
Mistaken assumption, false conclusion.
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If its intension is to protect us from err, how does it fail us then?
Mistaken assumption, false conclusion. It isn't there to "protect us from err" [sic].
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Is there something more powerful than the conscience then? Yes. The Free Will:
You mean when I tap that spot just below your knee with a hammer, it is your free will that causes your leg to twitch?
Careful...you're about to say that humans don't have instincts or reflexes or all those other pesky neurological things that other animals have.
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The complete and total right to choose between right and wrong.
But there is no solid definition as to what is "right" and "wrong." If there were, everybody would agree and they don't.
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No other species has or even needs this right.
Incorrect.
Other primates do this as do some cetaceans.
You really need to do some more research on animal behaviour.
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Observation has shown that all their behavioral habits are survivalistic in nature, and they never commit presumptuous acts of wrong.
Incorrect.
In fact, the exact opposite is true. This was part of the problem Jane Goodall had when she reported her findings. Nobody thought that "mere animals" were capable of things like rape, murder, theft, extortion, and war.
And yet, they are.
Therefore, you have started with a mistaken premise and led yourself to a false conclusion.
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Why do they not have or need this right?
Because you are mistaken in your premise and thus have led yourself to a false conclusion.
Animals do have moral codes and do choose between them.
Go into the jungle and watch the chimpanzees for a few years. You might learn something.
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It was not part of their design.
So why do they do so?
Are they sinning against god?
Of course, you still haven't managed to explain how one gets from homosexual activity to murder. Could you help us out here? How does recognizing that two women engaging in sex are not sinning lead us to conclude that murder is not a sin, either?
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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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