Hi Straggler,
I am not going to debate this issue as there is really nothing to debate. But I will try to answer your questions.
Most so called christians will disagree with what I am going to say but that is fine by me. I don't mind standing alone.
Straggler writes:
Apparently if we recognise this sacrifice and seek forgiveness for our inherently sinful nature then we will be rewarded with salvation and avoid eternal damnation.
Wrong. God offers you a free gift. A free full pardon all you have to do is receive it.
A reward is earned. You can't earn salvation.
Straggler writes:
1) What exactly was sacrificed?
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane the night they came for Him.
In Matthew 26:36-53 Jesus prays 3 times that God the Father would let the cup pass from Him.
He was in such agony He sweat drops of blood.
He truly dreaded something besides physical death.
This was probably around midnight and at around 9 AM Jesus was nailed to the cross and lifted up as prophesied hundreds of year beforehand.
At the sixth hour 12 noon.
Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
The lights went out.
At the ninth Jesus cried out:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I will answer the question Jesus asked. God had forsaken Jesus because He had become sin for me as He took my sins upon Him.
God can not have sin in His presence so for 3 hours Jesus was separated from God the Father. This was something that had never happened in all of eternity past.
This separation had to be so I would not have to be separated from God for eternity.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John adds this little bit to his story. Jesus said it is finished.
The sin debt was paid in full.
Straggler writes:
2) Is the death of Jesus a big deal?
Yes a very big deal. All flesh must die that is the curse brought on by the first man eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The mortal body Jesus had could not enter heaven as Paul tell us.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Had not Christ body been buried and resurrected there would have been no victory.
The devil crucified Christ and if he could have kept Him in the grave he would have won.
Straggler writes:
3) Is pain the key?
The pain Jesus suffered only gives us a little understanding of what he suffered. Because we understand physical pain. The physical pain was for our benefit.
The separation from God is what paid the sin debt.
Straggler writes:
4) Why sacrifice?
To satisfy the justice of God.
Man disobeyed God and somebody had to satisfy God for that disobedience.
Straggler writes:
If any sacrifice has actually been made why was any of it necessary in the first place?
Because God loved me and was willing to buy me back from the slavery that the first man sold me into when he disobeyed God.
God wanted me to be perfect like the first man was before he disobeyed.
Since I was not able to satisfy God's demands a substitute had to satisfy God for me. That was my big brother Jesus, He took care of it for me.
What makes it so wonderful to me is that if I had been the only one that accepted God's offer He would still have gone through with it.
But God didn't just offer a pardon to me. He offered it to whosoever will accept that pardon.
Straggler writes:
So I am basically suggesting that the crucifixion of Christ was not a sacrifice of any particular substance and that if there was a sacrifice of any sort it was all very unnecessary anyway.
You are certainly free to have your opinion. God allowed you that choice.
But most here are advocating a position that they would require God to not give them that choice. That He would just program them to do what He wants them to do.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
™ Version 4.2
