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Author Topic:   Do I have a choice? (determinism vs libertarianism vs compatibilism)
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 210 (359314)
10-27-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Tusko
10-27-2006 10:26 AM


Re: Brain-Clone Blues
RAZD's right - choice might be possible, and it could be that choice might be a legitimate part of a chaotic system. To me though, that doesn't make any sense, and is just as demeaning to us as the idea that everything is predetermined. We are rational beings. That's amazing. We do things for reasons, as far as I can see. They might not be rational reasons in an objective sense, but they are for reasons. So it all seems arse about face to say that there's something chaotic about choice.
I have to concur with you on this one. All these rational choices made from cognizance, certainly seeming to come from our own volition, does not seem to be apart of some chaotic system organizing the disorganized. You could take your deductive reasoning a step further to include nature. What are the odds that all of these things happening at once, with millions of variables to choose from, does chaos never seem to live up to its name? How is that chaos seems to be so orderly and purposeful?
And besides, just as you shared, wouldn't it just be tantamount to being predetermined anyway?
What have you surmised about freewill :vs: determinism?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Tusko, posted 10-27-2006 10:26 AM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Tusko, posted 10-28-2006 10:30 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 210 (359472)
10-28-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Tusko
10-28-2006 10:30 AM


Re: Brain-Clone Blues
I simply cannot see how a choice can be neither predetermined nor random. Consequently I cannot see how there can be such a thing as free will, at least by my definition.
That's an interesting proposition and one that CS Lewis has touched upon in a latter chapter of "Mere Christianity." His discourse made alot of sense and it nimbly gets around the conundrum of determinism and freewill. As you've shared, both seem to have some fundamental flaw. It almost seems like there are elements of both, and would have to be, without having them cancel each other out. I wish I could remember off-hand how the argument was presented.
You might respond "well, how do you know that you are guided by subconcious preferences? Thats just a guess on your part because unconcious preferences are necessarily hidden." Alternatively you might say "how do you know that your prefences are sometimes guided by true randomness?" I agree that its speculative, but to me it seems more probable because for free will to work, it seems as though a third, unknown element is introduced into the equation that is neither random nor predetermined. To me this element seems impossible.
Yeah, but all these arguments are made for beings bound by a timeline. I wouldn't say we are bound by our preferences. Indeed, even if we were, surely we arrived at those preferences testing out our freewill. For instance, I'm not too particular on vanilla or chocolate. Either will do depending on my mood. But I am not a fan of strawberry ice cream at all. The only way I arrived at my decision is by testing all three of my own volition. My preference may determine future outcomes, but that does not mean that I didn't make a meaningful choice since the inception of my original choice.
And if God is, then all of our actions are happening now, have yet to happen, and already passed, all at once. And there may be infinite choices for us, things that could have been had we chosen differently. This bit is pure speculation, but it makes some sense philosophically.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Tusko, posted 10-28-2006 10:30 AM Tusko has not replied

  
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