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Author | Topic: NEWSFLASH: Schools In Georgia (US) Are Allowed To Teach About Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ahmad Inactive Member |
Darwinism is a theory that is supported for the sake of materialist philosophy. This is the main reason behind the zealotry of Darwinists in countering the criticisms against their theory. For a long time, especially in the Western world, critics against the theory of evolution has been assaulted by several means: media propagated against them, they lost their jobs in schools, courts ruled against teaching theories other than evolution.
But the scientific evidence is not on the evolutionists' side, so they are loosing ground inevitably. In the last few decades, criticism against the Darwinist dogma was raised from every corner in the scientific community. This created a public awareness about the fallacies of the theory of evolution and the evidence for creation. In the last few years, this awareness is having its impacts in the US educational system. The dogmatic ban on teaching "creationism" - the view that life on Earth is the artifact of a Creator - is now questioned and abolished in several states. The latest crack in the wall of Darwinist dogmatism came from Georgia, one of the southern east states of America. The Guardians News website reports the following: The board of Georgia's second-largest school district voted Thursday night to give teachers permission to introduce students to varying views about the origin of life, including creationism. The proposal, approved unanimously by the Cobb County school board, says the district believes "discussion of disputed views of academic subjects is a necessary element of providing a balanced education, including the study of the origin of species."... Supporters, including high school junior Michael Gray, said the board's choice encouraged academic freedom. "I had to do a term paper about evolution and there were just things that I could disprove or have alternate reasons for," said Gray, who attends Pope High School. "I want my brother and sister to be given the option and not told it's the absolute truth."(1) The Darwinist establishment is alarmed against this decision. The strange fact is that they are trying to use legal means to stop creationism, not any intellectual effort. As Guardians News reports, Barry Lynn, executive director for Americans United for Separation of Church and State says that they will sue the Cobb County school board. "It would be as if Cobb County were putting up a giant `sue me' sign," he adds. What he misses is the fact he is using the same method used by the infamous Inquisition centuries ago: Trying to defeat a scientific idea by "legal" means. The Inquisition had failed to protect its dogmas-like the Ptolemaic model of the universe. The Darwinist establishment will fail too, to protect the myth called evolution. (1) News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
Walaykum salam brother Andya Primanda. I am not sure about this but are you the same Muslim critic that is in support of evolution? Who tried to refute brother Harun Yahya regarding the new discovery of the Toumai that sank all evolutionary theories?
Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
nos482,
quote: One the contrary, evolution contradicts the very essense of Science. Recent developments in science completely disprove the theory of evolution. The only reason Darwinism is still foisted on people by means of a worldwide propaganda campaign lies in the ideological aspects of the theory. Brother Harun Yahya summarizes all these key points, scientifically. And since I am a science student, who undesrtands how science fuctions, I have a better grasp over this subject. Of course, I am always open for corrections and rebuttals, nonetheless. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
Andya Primanda,
quote: I don't see anything pseudonymous in brother Adnan using the name Harun Yahya, either. I will have a look at your articles and in the due course of time, will issue my responses to it, Insha Allah. It is Ramadan time, so I may not be able to give my responses pronto. And since you are a theistic evolutionist and a Muslim, I wish you a Happy Ramadan Mubarak!! Assala Moalaikum,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
Thats not how it goes. A pseudonym refers to a fictitous name whereas Harun Yahya is a nick adopted by brother Adnan on the basis that the name is the combination of the name of two Prophets, who, are not fictitous.
Of course, the other meaning for pseudonym is pen name and if you want to say Harun Yahya is a pseudonym on the basis that it is a pen name then I have no argument. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
John,
quote: He is not hiding behind the name. He does reveal his real name in About the Author section of his site. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
Andya Primanda,
quote: On the contrary, recent developments in science has shed much more light on the origin of mankind and the universe as a whole. We have observed the irreducible complexity in numerous organelles of living organisms (eg - bacterial flagellum, ATP synthase molecule, proteins etc)which refutes evolution. The recent discovery of the cambrian explosion that occured 500-550 million years ago has refuted the very definition of evolution. And then we have the discovery of the Toumai fossil which had the impact of a small nuclear bomb on evolution according to Lieberman and which evolutionists (like you) are constantly trying to refute and back each other up but it all ends in futility. But anyways, thats my point of view. At the end of the day it all boils down according to Al-Quran, "To you be your way and to me mine". Salam,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: So irreducible complexity in living organisms cannot be understood? Is that a primitive view, as you state it? I rather doubt. The very phrase [b][i]Irreducible Complexity[/b][/i] explains its meaning, i.e, something that CANNOT be further simplified. For more info, read Michael Behe's book, "Darwin's black box".
quote: Since I did not blow my credibility off the board, your accusation is moot. Getting back to the subject, Darwin himself admitted that his theory CANNOT explain cambrian explosion (Origin of Species — 2nd ed. Chapter IX). And this, indeed, is an [b]explosion[/i] in the sense that it was an abrupt appearance of most of the complex invertebrates present in the fossil record.
quote: I'll take your advise. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: Theory of Evolution contradicts the Law of thermodynamics. So if a theory contradicts a Law, which one would you go for?
quote: Religious fundamentalists? You mean, Robert Shapiro, J.D Thomas, Fred Hoyle, William Dembski, Peter Russel, Michael Behe, Walter Bradley, Blaise Pascal, Philip Johnson are all religious fundamentalists?? They are very well-known scientists and have contributed quite highly in the realm of Science and technology.
quote: "The opportune appearance of mutations permitting animals and plants to meet their needs seems hard to believe. Yet the Darwinian theory is even more demanding: A single plant, a single animal would require thousands and thousands of lucky, appropriate events. Thus, miracles would become the rule: events with an infinitesimal probability could not fail to occur There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it."(Pierre-P Grass, Evolution of Living Organisms, New York: Academic Press, 1977, p. 103) "The reason we specifically mention the senses of seeing and hearing here is the inability of evolutionists to understand evidence of creation so clear as this. If, one day, you ask an evolutionist to explain to you how this excellent design and technology became possible in the eye and the ear as a result of chance, you will see that he will not be able to give you any reasonable or logical reply. Even Darwin, in his letter to Asa Gray on April 3rd 1860, wrote that "the thought of the eye made him cold all over" and he confessed the desperation of the evolutionists in the face of the excellent design of living things.(Norman Macbeth, Darwin Retried: An Appeal to Reason. Boston: Gambit, 1971, p. 101.) "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.(Dan Graves, Scientists of Faith, . 51) "Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with." (J. De Vries, Essential of Physical Science, Wm.B.Eerdmans Pub.Co., Grand Rapids, SD 1958, p. 15.)
quote: I hope to do better, Insha Allah (God willing).
quote: Ah, the creationist conspiracy theory! "You will have to do better than baseless assertions and conspiracy theories to be taken seriously here, I'm afraid."
quote: In accordance to my humble knowledge, the arguments raised in this era by potential as well as professional scientists are just warming up. They haven't been refuted, yet attempts were made.
quote: As a matter of fact of fact, they are being incorporated in mainstream science. The step to teach creationism in high schools, the recent dicovery of the Unjunk "Junk DNA", the advances made in the study of the cambrian explosion, observation of irreducible complexity in living organisms are all examples of this incorporation. I do admit, that it will take a while for creationism to be the dominant approach in studying the origin of everything, but its worth it. May the Truth, triumph!!
quote: Science, as I understand it, is a tool to unravel, to decode, to discover, to advance, to ascend, and to eliminate the wrath of ignorance and superstition. Science does not contradict Religion... nor vice versa. They go hand-in-hand as Einstein states: "Science without religion is Lame; Religion without Science is blind". Real Science deals not only with the material world as we perceived by the five senses but also the root causes and effects of that perception. It is impossible for us to reach the physical world. All objects around us are a collection of perceptions. By processing the data in the centre of vision and in other sensory centres, our brain, throughout our lives, confronts not the "original" of the matter existing outside us but rather the copy formed inside our brain. It is at this point that we are misled by assuming that these copies are instances of real matter outside us. But ofcourse, that is my point of view of it. I hope I made some sense. 'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision" (Surat al-Anaam, 103) Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: IC is evident in organisms. And it has been shown in the genome. It has been show that whenever hsp70(protein) was present in a genome, hsp40 and grpE were also found if enough sequencing was done; conversely, genome sequencing has demonstrated that if the hsp70 gene is absent, hsp40 and grpE are also absent. Now that shows that the presence of hsp70 is irreducibly complex. The bacterial flagellum (as a good example in Behe's book) is an example of IC.
quote: So an explosion of complex living organism like the trilobites justify the evolutionary theory of slow gradual change of living organism?? Mind the phrase used in geological literature, "Cambrian EXPLOSION" not "gradual evolution by natural selection or random mutation" as coined by Darwin. These complex invertebrates emerged suddenly and completely without having any link or any transitional form between them and the unicellular organisms, which were the only life forms on earth prior to them. So now, are you going to toss Gould's alternative theory of punctuated equilibria or just admit that this explosion, which occured 500 milliion years ago poses a great dilemma for they theory of evolution? Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: I have not mentioned anything concerning any suoernatural agency.......yet. How you can supposedly know the arts of telepathy is bizzare to me. Getting back, we do know how complexity can be simplified or reduced but ONLY IN CERTAIN CASES. There are systems that are irreducible complex and it is evident. Behe outlined the example of a mouse-trap and demonstrated how a mouse-trap is irreducibly complex. Apart from that; the ATPase molecule, bacterial flagellum, the cilium etc are irreduibly complex.
quote: How do you know where do I draw the line for something to be recent? Differing ways to see things is what really makes us unique and we see things differently in different ways. Something that is recent for one may not be recent for another and vice versa. Switching tracks, Recent findings indicate that almost all phyla, the most basic animal divisions, emerged abruptly in the Cambrian period. I would like to quote the preacher and one of the most popular(and favorite) characters in atheism and darwinism, the Zoologist Richard Dawkins himself regarding this subject: "For example the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists."(Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, London: W. W. Norton 1986, p. 229.)
quote: I doubt that. When Dawkins himself admits that the organism in the Cambrian era were "just planted there without any evolutionary history", this provides a good argument against evolution. I really don't know how your asserted modern theory can describe "explosion" as "slow burn" since I am not aware of it. But most assuredly, the recent findings and advances made regarding this subject, does provide, at the least, a clue for an Omnipotent Entity. Even Douglas Futuyma, a prominent evolutionist biologist admits this fact and states: "Organisms either appeared on the earth fully developed or they did not. If they did not, they must have developed from preexisting species by some process of modification. If they did appear in a fully developed state, they must indeed have been created by some omnipotent intelligence."(Douglas J. Futuyma, Science on Trial, New York: Pantheon Books, 1983, p. 197). Darwin himself recognised the possibility of this when he wrote: "If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection."(Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species: A Facsimile of the First Edition, Harvard University Press, 1964, p. 302.). The Cambrian Period is nothing more or less than Darwin's "fatal stroke". This is why the Swiss evolutionist paleoanthropologist Stefan Bengston confesses the lack of transitional links while he describes the Cambrian Period and says "Baffling (and embarrasing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us"(Stefan Bengston, Nature, Vol. 345, 1990, p. 765.)
quote: Now when did I say that "all of the invertebrates appeared in the Cambrian era"?? I said, "MOST of the complex invertebrates". Do read my statements carefully before chalking out a response. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: What is "better preservation"? What are the alternative theories for this abrupt appreance?? Plate tectonics? PE? Or Creation? And why do I have to demonstrate this is an explosion?? The phrase itself tells you this. And how else would you describe or label the abrupt appearance of living organisms?
quote: You mean the "slow gradual" change is not part of evolution?? Is this another Neo-Darwinist view of this theory?
quote: I don't think Dawkins is a creationist, is he?
quote: I am willing to stand corrected, provided sufficient evidence exists. The recent advances and fossil records has contributed highly on the classification of organisms in the Cambrian era. To begin with, how would you explain the extremely complex eye structure of the trilobites that appeared all of a sudden? Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: If you know, most of the popular science journals like Nature (John Maddox), Scientific American (John Rennie) and a host of others are by pro-darwinists and atheists. Nonetheless, I will give some: "The particular truth is simply that we have no reliable evidence as to the evolutionary sequence . . One can find qualified professional arguments for any group being the descendant of almost any other."J. Bonner, "Book Review," American Scientist(peer-reviewed source), 49:1961, p. 240. "Darwinism is a creed not only with scientists committed to document the all-purpose role of natural selection. It is a creed with masses of people who have at best a vague notion of the mechanism of evolution as proposed by Darwin, let alone as further complicated by his successors. Clearly, the appeal cannot be that of a scientific truth but of a philosophical belief which is not difficult to identify. Darwinism is a belief in the meaninglessness of existence."*R. Kirk, "The Rediscovery of Creation," in National Review(Journal), (May 27, 1983), p. 641. "I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any evolutionary theory I know."*Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory," Discover(Science Journal) 2(5):34-37 (1981). If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces, and radiation, how has it come into being? I think, however, that we mustadmit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it. (H. P. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution", Physics Bulletin(Journal), vol. 138, 1980, p. 138).
quote: Well, you asked for them. I am willing to discuss the evidence too.
quote: Seems like you're reading only one side of the story. For counter-rebuttals and responses go to trueorigins.org, icr.org or harunyahya.com
quote: Then its not a religion, in the first place.
quote: I understand what you're trying to say and I do agree with it.... to a certain extent. I am not saying that Laws are not based on theories. My argument is diametrically different. The Law of thermodynamics is not BASED on the theory of evolution but the dynamics of heat and entropy. However, if the theory of evolution contradicts this Law, how are we supposed to reconcile and justify?
quote: But the biosphere is enclosed in a closed system - The Universe. Should we not take that in account? Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: Why not? So I have to base my arguments by the criterias you lay?
quote: How do you know that the designer is complex? To what definition do you ascribe that to? Do you believe in the [/i]designer[/i] in the first place, to ask such a question? Its like asking who created the Creator; which is an utter baseless question, since the Creator created His creations. He began the beginning.
quote: No, I mean they are irreducibly complex.
quote: Yes, Behe is a theistic evolutionist. And I don't recall saying anything uncomprehensible to be magic.
quote: Hmm... yeah.
quote: Why don't you quote my entire sentence instead of a phrase?
quote: I never claimed that human fossils were part of the cambrian explosion and I don't think there are any.
quote: That statement enters the criteria of an honest acknowledgements (confession) by Dawkins. Although he's still an evolutionist, the quote is to validate my argument about cambrian explosion. As I know, the statement is in context.
quote: Oh but he did. Let me extend the quote Dawkins made in his book about the cambrian explosion for further clarification: "Eldredge and Gould certainly would agree that some very important gaps really are due to imperfections in the fossil record. Very big gaps, too. For example the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists." (Dawkins, Richard, The Blind Watchmaker," 1986, p.229). So now you get the full picture? The reason he applies here is "due to imperfections in the fossil record". Thats the only explanation he gives. Throughout his book, he does not describe the reason of the imperfections as he claims.
quote: Not Dawkins quote, but the Cambrian explosion
quote: I don't know much I know, nor do I know how much you know nor do you know how much I know and ad infinitum. Lets just share the knowledge instead of pointing out how much anyone knows.
quote: This is recent.
quote: Futuyama is still an evolutionist and that proves my point. No matter how much empirical evidence is gathered against evolution, materialists will continue to cling to their flimsy thread of materialistic philosophy. All they can make is confessions which I applaud as a sign of their honesty. How long is that "ALL"?? Do I to quote the entire chapter here? I have taken the quote IN CONTEXT.
quote: I have and this "if" of darwin has changed into reality, a.k.a, Cambrian Explosion.
quote: Notice the word "fatal" that was used by darwin in my previous quote.
quote: My quotes can be verified for their accuracy. I really don't think the question you posed (although they are good questions) should be directed to me since I am not responsible for what Dawkins, Gould, or Bengston says. Ask them. I am just quoting them to validate my argument
quote: Lets hear from Gould: "The Cambrian Explosion occurred in a geological moment, and we have reason to think that all major anatomical designs may have made their evolutionary appearance at that time. ...not only the phylum Chordata itself, but also all its major divisions, arose within the Cambrian Explosion. So much for chordate uniqueness... Contrary to Darwin's expectation that new data would reveal gradualistic continuity with slow and steady expansion, all major discoveries of the past century have only heightened the massiveness and geological abruptness of this formative event..." (Gould, Stephen J., Nature, vol. 377, October 1995, p.682.)
quote: I repeat: abrupt appearance of complex living organisms ALL AT ONCE. Regards,Ahmad
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Ahmad Inactive Member |
quote: Your approach to respond to my argument is quite sarcastic. I provided scientific about how the presense of hsp70 in the genome is irreducibly complex. For scientific literature go here >> http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_mg1darwinianpathways.htm
quote: Once again, sarcasm. Why don't you respond to my arguments with empirical evidence instead of sheer sarcams which does no benefit to our dialog whatsoever.
quote: IC is not a hypothesis, it is evident. I gave you the examples. Its not circular either.... like natural selection
quote: Hmmm....... 53 million years?
quote: Talk origins is behind date. Fossils recently found challenge the rapid animal evolution in the cambrian period as talk origins claims >> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...7/0719_crustacean.html In short, they are wrong
quote: So there are no transitional fossils evidence for cambrian explosion. They haven't named any. Guess talk origins once again is gasping at straws.
quote: Once again, your argument is dated. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...7/0719_crustacean.html
quote: existed before? The very first appearance of metazoans took place during the Camnrian era.
quote: That would depend once we investigate the origin of the species
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