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Author Topic:   Splintering our Education System based on FAITH
paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 22 of 110 (195765)
03-31-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by tsig
03-31-2005 2:10 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
Whatever the merits or demerits of the views in the Sayers essay, there is an excerpt that seems very to the point:
Have you ever, in listening to a debate among adult and presumably responsible people, been fretted by the extraordinary inability of the average debater to speak to the question, or to meet and refute the arguments of speakers on the other side?
I doubt an education based solely on the ideas of medieval scholasticism is sufficient for the 21st century. But the tendency of some posters here to fling "medieval" as a pejorative bespeaks a lack of wanting to engage some of the merits of at least incorporating some features of it. After all , the Enlightenment natural law tradition does owe something to Aquinas. While recognizing the merits of other venerable cultures such as China and India, there is no real value in seeing the Western cultural heritage as solely something to trash.
Remember, the postmodernists see science as something socially constructed and lacking real epistemic value.
On the other hand, as someone who accepts evolution, I think the fortress mentality of those who don't, and who see nothing in modern society except things to be dismayed about, seems to lead to overromanticizing an imagined "better time" that never really was.
I see the deisre to homeschool as a retreat from serious engagement with a complex and sometimes intimidating world. But hsitorically, such obscurantism only results in further marginalization.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by tsig, posted 03-31-2005 2:10 PM tsig has not replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 53 of 110 (195827)
03-31-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
03-31-2005 4:14 PM


Re: OT
I think what people are worried about is that, if there's all these different systems, with presumably different concentrations in different subjects, and they're all to be considered equivlent, then there's a real possibility that your doctor, for instance, might be totally lacking some crucial knowledge that he or she might otherwise have been exposed to.
I dunno, I'm not that scared. As it stands now, there's already every possibility that your doctor skipped classes and cheated on his exams.
Well, there are state medical licensing boards, CPA examinations, bar examinations, the Professional Engineer registration, accreditation boards like ABET for this very reason - that the quality of education in these fields from various universities already varies widely. Of course, the quality of the exams and accreditation standards could be altered...
I'm not aware that acceptance, or lack thereof, of evolution is, or should be , part of the criteria for passing these exams.
I personally don't care whether my CPA is an atheist or a Pentecostal if they do my taxes properly and follow the law.
Now I would be a bit bothered by a YEC medical doctor, but that's just me.

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 57 of 110 (195900)
03-31-2005 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
03-31-2005 7:13 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
It is simply NOT true that you have to believe the universe is any particular age, that the layers in the geologic column were formed 4500 years ago or bazillions, that dinosaurs lived 5000 years ago or some millions of years ago, or that we were created in Eden or all evolved from the primordial swamps, in order to do excellent science.
I couldn't disagree more. Good science is about using multiple corroborating lines of evidence, from many fields if necessary, to develop a testable model that best explains the evidence and can be used as the basis for both further scientific understanding and practical applications.
The old universe model satisfies this. The young universe model does not. At best the young universe model relies on question begging and ad hoc hypotheses to explain away the more likely inferences from the evidence, but these fall apart when the comprehensive scrutiny is done from all angles.
I'm sure you've heard this before but it sounds like you don't understand how science works or is done. It is not about gathering a body of unrelated measurements and factoids.

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 Message 54 by Faith, posted 03-31-2005 7:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 85 of 110 (196014)
04-01-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Silent H
04-01-2005 6:49 AM


Re: Faith... stop the madness
The question is regarding standardization of curricula such that a degreed student is sufficiently knowledgeable in certain fields. Without that degrees are as good as monopoly money, and the idea that everyone gets to have their beliefs taught as an educational standard destroys any concept of a standard.
I understand your concerns, but isn't this true to some degree already? Institutions like Bob Jones U. already exist. Even state universities vary in quality from near-Ivy level to Podunk State.
Hence external corroborations of standards are set by each profession. Licensing boards, examinations of various types, probationary entry level positions, preliminary exams for new graduate students, qualifying exams, etc.
Is your concern one of professional competence or a more general concern ? Is the concern wheter Bob Jones should be allowed to call itself a university, or over the competence of its graduates ? It's possible their bio major is worthless, but their CPA major produces competent tax accountants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Silent H, posted 04-01-2005 6:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Silent H, posted 04-01-2005 1:55 PM paisano has replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 88 of 110 (196041)
04-01-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Silent H
04-01-2005 1:55 PM


Re: Faith... stop the madness
Well, your scenario presupposes that the religious right has enough power to enact their agenda in toto. I'm not sure that's the case.
Yes, in politics conservatives hold the majority at present, but are they as monolithic as your scenario would seem to require ?
Are the executives of major oil companies - generally politically conservative - prepared to mandate a belief in YEC geology in their exploration technical staff ? Would the financial markets react negatively to this ? What about the biotech and pharmaceutical industry ?
I can only speak for myself, as you know, I have what are considered conservative views on several issues, but I also oppose Lysenkoization of science by either the left or the right, because historically it's a terrible idea that doesn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Silent H, posted 04-01-2005 1:55 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Silent H, posted 04-01-2005 2:16 PM paisano has replied

paisano
Member (Idle past 6453 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 90 of 110 (196051)
04-01-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Silent H
04-01-2005 2:16 PM


Re: Faith... stop the madness
Well, ID is a broad term, many IDists accept an old universe and even some descent with modification, however they argue that there are limits to this...of course I think these ideas are unfounded...we've been through this before and will again.
No, I don't think an education solely based on medieval scholasticism is suffiecient for the 21st century. There is a trend toward "great books" based core curricula at some Catholic universities (e.g Gonzaga) but they are supplemented with more professionally focused studies for a major. And the bio department teaches evolution.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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