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Author Topic:   What is a Theory?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 42 of 249 (494076)
01-13-2009 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by erikp
01-13-2009 12:25 PM


Re: your "logic" leaps to false conclusions
erikp writes:
The theory that says that "water boils at 100 C" is simply false.
No it isn't, water under normal circumstances still only boils at 100 C.
According to the definition of "false", one observation that contradicts the theory is sufficient to prove it false.
But the observation wasn't under normal circumstances, it added a bit, the pressure. And so the theory became, water boils at 100 C unless a certain pressure is applied, then it boils at 70 C.
Well, one can clearly observe that water boils at 70 C when atmospheric pressure has been reduced sufficiently.
Exactly, but since this doesn't happen naturally here on Earth, the theory that water boils at 100 C still stands.
Therefore, applying the definition, the theory is incontrovertibly false.
No it isn't. Your logic, however, is.
Note that 999 999 999 999 observations may not contradict, and therefore support the theory; it doesn't matter.
Yes it does. Since the observation you're talking about didn't contradict the theory.
That one observation that does contradict it, irrevocably falsifies the theory.
But it didn't contradict it, water still boils at 100 C under normal circumstances, it will boil earlier when you tinker with the pressure,, but in a normal situation, this never happens.
And the theory is then simply false, regardless of how long anybody or how many people may have thought it was true.
As shown, the theory is not false, there was just a bit added.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by erikp, posted 01-13-2009 12:25 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by erikp, posted 01-13-2009 12:59 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 45 of 249 (494082)
01-13-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by erikp
01-13-2009 12:59 PM


Re: your "logic" leaps to false conclusions
What is the definition for "normal circumstances"? In absence of a definition for that term, your statement is simply open-ended.
Conditions as they exist naturally on this Earth. Happy now?
If you do define the term, however, we are inevitably back to the formula that describes the boiling point for water according to the current state of the art.
Yes, and it is true.
That formula is wrong, but we just still don't know why.
Everything we know says that it is right, how can you be so sure that it is wrong? Do you have evidence that it is wrong? No? Then this is just a baseless assertion.
The next iteration of that formula will be wrong too.
How do you know there will even BE a "next iteration"? You don't? Then it is again a baseless assertion.
Science will remain: unproven, false.
Wrong. Science will remain true, until facts turn up that show it isn't entirely correct. I think we can say this safely about most of the most well understood theories: "NO fact that turns up will sow them to be absolutely false." They might need some tweaking, but I'm fairly confident that they won't be shown to be utterly false. Look at your water example, that water boils at 100 C is still true, it just so happens you can also make it boil at 70 C when you tinker with the pressure.
By the way, you do know NOTHING can ever be proven in science, don't you.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by erikp, posted 01-13-2009 12:59 PM erikp has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 54 of 249 (494109)
01-14-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by NosyNed
01-14-2009 10:20 AM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
Hey Ned, one thing:
NosyNed writes:
The theories we do have work so well that they are not likely to be overturned like the heliocentric theory of the solar system was.
The Heliocentric model was overturned? When?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NosyNed, posted 01-14-2009 10:20 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by NosyNed, posted 01-14-2009 10:29 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 59 of 249 (494124)
01-14-2009 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by erikp
01-14-2009 12:09 PM


Re: your "logic" leaps to false conclusions
iven the definition of "true" and "false", "incomplete" means "false".
Only by your definitions.
true: all possible observations concur with the theory.
false: one observation contradicts the theory.
See?
An incomplete theory is false, because there will be at least one observation that will contradict it -- there where the theory is incomplete.
Wrong. An incomplete theory simply hasn't had ALL possible observations and circumstances put into it. Everything it says will still be correct, there just needs to be added something to make it encompass more data.
If all theories are incomplete, they are all false.
Again, only by your (false) logic.
Gdel already proves that all axiomatic theories capable of expression basic arithmetic are incomplete (and therefore false).
Axiomatic theories perhaps, but NO scientific theory is axiomatic.
Even though it is not proven that all non-axiomatic theories of sufficient complexity, that is, falsifiable by an infinite number of future observations, are also incomplete, and therefore false, it is certainly reasonable to assume this.
No, it isn't. For if everything we know is false i.e. it does not comply with reality, then how can we ever do anything?
Since "incomplete" in this context means "false", the entire body of science must be deemed to be false.
Ok, then since it doesn't mean that (only you think so), have we finally reached the conclusion that they aren't?
However, nobody is currently able to demonstrate this statement, by making the observations that will prove it.
And since it has absolutely no evidence, we can safely regard it as false for now.
Here's an example for you to demonstrate the difference between false and incomplete.
Say I went to a store last Friday and bought 2 sweets 1 soda and 1 hot dog. Now, when the next day someone asks me what I did yesterday, I tell them I went to the store. This is true (I went there). However, it is also incomplete (I bought several things there, which I didn't mention). Does this make the statement false? NO! The statement is true, just incomplete.
I hope it helped.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 12:09 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 1:08 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 63 of 249 (494129)
01-14-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by erikp
01-14-2009 12:38 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
erikp writes:
Not one theory in the current body of science claims this.
Of course not, because there's no way to tell if this is the case. Further, it was a hypothetical situation, showing that your logic is wrong.
What's more, Gdel's second incompleteness theory, which is supported by formal proof, says that a (sufficiently complex, in terms of Gdel) theory that makes statements concerning its own consistency (truth), is necessarily inconsistent (false).
No theory claims itself to be true, simply because we can never know if it IS true, that doesn't mean that it reflects all observation until that point perfectly, and can thus be considered true.
A (sufficiently complex, in terms of Gdel) theory can therefore not claim its own truth. In addition to that, any sufficiently complex theory is falsifiable by an infinite number of future statements, and is therefore eternally unproven.
Yes, that does not mean it is not true though.
n those circumstances, how could anybody ever claim the ultimate truth of such theory?
Nobody does. But all theories fit all observation up until now.
There are true theories, however.
But we will never know if they are.
A theory falsifiable by a finite number of facts, can be completely true, and will be proven after observing the last fact.
But we can't observe every fact, not ever.
A theory falsifiable by 10 facts and not falsified by any of them, is true.
Yes, such theories do not exist however.
The same for 9,8,7,6,5,...,2,1 facts. What about zero facts?
They don't exist either.
The principle of continuity demands that a theory falsifiable by zero facts and (obviously) not falsified by them, is true.
Yet, such a theory does not exist.
Therefore, unfalsifiable theories must be considered: true.
Wrong. They must be considered unscientific. In fact, they mustn't be considered theories at all.
The ultimate truth can therefore not be a theory falsifiable by an infinite number of future facts, by its own rules unable to claim its own truth (science), but rather a correctly stated (that is, by enforcing its unfalsifiability) unfalsifiable theory.
Wrong. Unfalsifiable statements aren't theories. They should also be considered unscientific.
A true theory can therefore only consist of (necessarily past) facts and unfalsifiable claims (religion).
Wrong, theories are NEVER unfalsifiable.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 12:38 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 1:36 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 71 of 249 (494141)
01-14-2009 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by erikp
01-14-2009 1:36 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
As Percy pointed out, none of those are theories. So again, you show your logic is false.
Show me a theory that has a fixed number of observations that can be made, or retract your statements (like that will ever happen, judging by the way you post).
I suggest you very carefully read this article, before posting again, to avoid embarrassing yourself some more with your faulty logic.
Scientific theory - Wikipedia

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 1:36 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 2:15 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 78 of 249 (494149)
01-14-2009 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by erikp
01-14-2009 2:15 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
"It will rain tomorrow." is a theory, and it has just 1 observation that can be made to falsify it.
You didn't read the link I posted, did you? From Wiki:
quote:
In science, the word theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon.
Since your statement doesn't explain a phenomenon (it only makes a prediction) it is not a theory.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 2:15 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 2:48 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 84 of 249 (494155)
01-14-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by erikp
01-14-2009 2:48 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
erikp writes:
The theory "It will rain tomorrow." is not particularly well supported and has no justification whatsoever. So what?
Did you read what I wrote? I wrote that your "theory" does not explain a phenomenon. It is only a prediction, it is not a an explanation, and thus not a theory.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 2:48 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 3:22 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 91 of 249 (494164)
01-14-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by erikp
01-14-2009 3:22 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
erikp writes:
I have already replied to that in a previous post.
You were wrong though.
Anyway, Gdel writes a good deal about the theory about theories (Wiki):
quote:
a (formal) theory is a set of statements expressed in a particular formal language.
We're not talking about formal theories here, we're talking about scientific ones. And your prediction that it will rain tomorrow is NOT a scientific theory.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 3:22 PM erikp has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 97 of 249 (494170)
01-14-2009 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by erikp
01-14-2009 3:43 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
erikp writes:
Since "It rains tomorrow" is a mathematical theory
Seriously? You didn't just say that did you? What the hell has gotten into your head? "It rains tomorrow" A mathematical theory? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 3:43 PM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 4:06 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 103 of 249 (494176)
01-14-2009 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by erikp
01-14-2009 4:06 PM


Re: Scope is necessarilly limited
erikp writes:
{ Rains(17JAN2008) } is a set of statements expressed in a particular formal language, and therefore a theory.
But it is NOT a mathematical theory, which is what you claimed it to be. Further, it rains tomorrow doesn't mean it will rain on the 17th of January, it depends on when the statement is made what tomorrow is. Also, it is not a scientific theory, as has been explained at least 5 times now.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by erikp, posted 01-14-2009 4:06 PM erikp has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2325 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 182 of 249 (494476)
01-16-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by erikp
01-16-2009 9:56 AM


erikp writes:
You've already argued that Stephen Hawking is some kind of an idiot who doesn't understand anything about mathematics and that you are the one who should receive the Nobel prize in his stead.
No he didn't.
How unfortunate for you that nobody seems to agree with you. If you are so much smarter than Stephen Hawking, how comes nobody is aware of that?
I don't know if he is "smarter" than Strephen Hawking, I do know you didn't understand what he said.
Everybody is obviously unjustly underestimating your amazing intelligence! Why would that be !?
Would you mind arguing against what he actually said, instead of resortying back to this trather poor ad hominem?
P.s.: All hail Rrhain! Champion of reason and logic!

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by erikp, posted 01-16-2009 9:56 AM erikp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by erikp, posted 01-16-2009 10:21 AM Huntard has not replied

  
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