EvC Forum: Balancing Faith and Science

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Topic: Balancing Faith and Science

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

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Message 13 of 137 (222019)
07-05-2005 10:11 PM

Reply to: Message 12 by dsv
07-05-2005 9:58 PM

Science and Faith ARE in Harmony

But religion says nothing about Science. The only real possible connect for those of us that are Theistic Evolutionists is that Science helps teach us more about how GOD did things.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 12 by dsv, posted 07-05-2005 9:58 PM		dsv has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 15 of 137 (222024)
07-05-2005 10:42 PM

Reply to: Message 14 by dsv
07-05-2005 10:39 PM

Re: Science and Faith ARE in Harmony

I believe there are clear conflicts in subscribing to organized religion and the scientific method.

Why? Most of the organized religions don't see any problem?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 14 by dsv, posted 07-05-2005 10:39 PM		dsv has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 17 of 137 (222028)
07-05-2005 11:07 PM

Reply to: Message 16 by dsv
07-05-2005 11:00 PM

Re: Science and Faith ARE in Harmony

Between religion and science? No. Why should there be any?

I think this is wandering around the edge of one of the great misconceptions. Let's see if we can explore it somewhat.

What possible conflict do you think there might be between Science and Religion?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 16 by dsv, posted 07-05-2005 11:00 PM		dsv has replied

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	Message 18 by dsv, posted 07-05-2005 11:19 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 19 of 137 (222033)
07-05-2005 11:27 PM

Reply to: Message 18 by dsv
07-05-2005 11:19 PM

Re: Science and Faith ARE in Harmony

How about the age of the Earth?

Speaking as a Christian, probably only 4-6 Billion years old. That's pretty well accepted as is the 14-20 Billion year estimate for the universe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 18 by dsv, posted 07-05-2005 11:19 PM		dsv has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 21 of 137 (222037)
07-05-2005 11:55 PM

Reply to: Message 20 by dsv
07-05-2005 11:43 PM

Re: Science and Faith ARE in Harmony

It's the opinion of much of organized Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church, Episcopal Church, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran and many Baptist Churches. It's the position of the Anglican Church. That's a pretty large segment of Christianity I'd say. In addition it's the position of the American Jewish Congress.

AbE:

If you'll also check some of the court cases you'll find that the most vocal opponents of teaching Creationism are other Christian Churches.

This message has been edited by jar, 07-05-2005 10:58 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 34 of 137 (222129)
07-06-2005 10:50 AM

Reply to: Message 29 by Parasomnium
07-06-2005 9:57 AM

Re: In the beginning {insert god} created the universe.

There are many religions, each telling its own story of the creation of the universe. Most stories are different in non-trivial ways. They cannot all be true.

Of course they can't all be true. In fact, it's likely that not even one of them is true. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue we'rediscussing. It also has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not GOD created the universe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 29 by Parasomnium, posted 07-06-2005 9:57 AM		Parasomnium has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

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Message 37 of 137 (222157)
07-06-2005 12:44 PM

Reply to: Message 35 by Parasomnium
07-06-2005 12:37 PM

Re: In the beginning {insert god} created the universe.

I was merely trying to tip the balance by showing the irrationality of faith. Not off-topic, in my opinion

But what does your point have to do with whether or not Religion and Science are mutually supportive or mutually exclusive?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 35 by Parasomnium, posted 07-06-2005 12:37 PM		Parasomnium has replied

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jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 50 of 137 (222219)
07-06-2005 3:32 PM

Reply to: Message 49 by Parasomnium
07-06-2005 3:20 PM

Re: In the beginning {insert god} created the universe.

But you're postulating something that many people would never argue with or about.

By showing the irrationality of faith and positing the rationality of science, I take the stance that faith and science are mutually exclusive, since irrational thinking can never be used as support for anything which is the product of a purely rational activity, which is what science is.

IMHO you've presented no more than a strawman argument. Religion says nothing about how things happen. That is the area of science. Religion does not support science in the realm of being a scientific tool. It deals with things that are totally outside the realm of science.

It may be that science discovers truths that were believed in all along by believers of certain faiths, but these truths are not established any stronger because of pre-existing irrational but, in hindsight, justified beliefs.

Of course not. I know of few religions that would not agree with you. But science does not deal in truths anyway.

I still don't see where there is any conflict or how the two are mutually exclusive.

So far it looks like all you're saying is that religion, faith, is not the way to uncover the realities of how the Universe was created and how it operates; that science is a better tool for that task. Okay. No problem. Religion is not the tool to do that.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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	Message 49 by Parasomnium, posted 07-06-2005 3:20 PM		Parasomnium has replied

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	Message 52 by Parasomnium, posted 07-06-2005 4:10 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 53 of 137 (222231)
07-06-2005 4:41 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by Parasomnium
07-06-2005 4:10 PM

Re: In the beginning {insert god} created the universe.

You and I may agree on the relative positions of religion and science with regard to how things work, but a lot of religious people, on this forum and elsewhere, would disagree.

Yes, indivisuals can and do hold differing viewpoints.

Creationism specifically wants to tell us how things happened. Creationism is religion, is it not?

Yes and No.

Creationism is a belief that is religous, but it is not Religion. It is but one religion. And it is wrong.

A religion, specifically the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Urban VIII (IIRC), forced Galileo to recant and abjure the belief that the sun was at the center of the universe (actually the solar system but why quibble) yet that did not change the reality and at the same time, other religions were far more accepting of the idea. Creationism (in the classic sense) is just as wrong about the scientific issues now as the Barberini's were then.

The guy wasn't all bad though, for example in 1638 he outlawed slavery in the Americas.

But you go on to say:

There is a conflict between religion - at least some forms of it, not yours probably - and science.

and that is both significant and important.

The author of this thread, the person referenced in the OP, Francis Collins and I as well as others here such as Trixie find that there is no conflict between our religious beliefs and either the scientific method or the discoveries made using the scientific method. In addition if you look at the list of folk opposing the teaching of Classic Creationism you will find that at every court case there is a significant presence of Religious organizations supporting science and opposing teaching creationism.

This seems to show that the problem is not one of religion and science, but rather between individual interpretations of beliefs. It is not RELIGION but rather some-religious beliefs held by only a segament of the general population that would fall under the broader characterization.

If you take the position that the problem is religion and science are mutually exclusive, how do you account for the people like Francis Collins, Trixie or me?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion