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Author Topic:   Homeopathy
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 142 (456352)
02-17-2008 11:39 AM


Complexity Of The Body's Systems
I've been reading this thread and thinking along the way.
Perhaps the explanation of homeopathy lies in the ability of the body's intelligently extreme complexity to make it work.
The digestive systems of the body process all that goes into the body. Many health practitioners recommend around 8 glasses a day for optimal health. This does not translate into all the nutritional elements of consumed food being diluted by 8 glasses of water. It translates into processing the ingested nutritional solid elements being immersed into solution in order that the digestive organs can assimilate out of solution the needed elements of nutrition which the body needs to energize, cleanse, detoxify, repair, etc. only the not needed waste is eliminated along with the water minus the needful elements which the organs have extracted out of the water.
Please understand that I'm not speaking as authoritative on the topic. The above is logical stuff that came to mind as I was reading the responses.
LindaLou, you're contribution to the debates is greatly appreciated by me and I'm sure, others including many readers who we never hear from and in fact including your counterparts who may not admit it. I do hope you will keep on cranking on here!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 142 (456366)
02-17-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Vacate
02-17-2008 11:14 AM


Homeopathic Science
Vacate writes:
LindaLou writes:
Then science needs to investigate how it works.
You presume that science has results that show there is something worth looking into.
Here is evidence that science is/has indeed being/been done on the theory of homeopathy .
1. Perhaps some would catagorize it as hypothesis rather than theory as the site states.
2. It applies some quantum aspects of science to the research model.
3. I am not qualified to support the science of the study/research except from a logical POV.
In this work, the authors springing from different scientifie disciplines set down in common their knowledge and experiences to provide one explicit model of the nature and of the working of "High Dilutions".
This original and multi disciplinary consensus has, as consequence, integrated the mechanism of the High Dilutions into the corpus of the Science and is in harmony with S.Hahnemann's statement: "Each science could only discuss objects that pertain to its domain".
This discovery has a lot of applications among which the modelling of Hahnemann's work is not the least. For 200 years, the questions of the founder of the homeopathy still remained to be solved: "How can weak doses of medication extended such as those used in homeopathy still have strength, high strength"? adding: "What happens really has to be at least possible".
When the matter disappears, it leaves what the authors called a "white hole" by opposition to the "black hole" in which the matter is super-dense. This implies that, for any dilution level up to Avogadro's number, remanent waves of neutronic nature are created, and will reorganize the structure of the diluent. This organisation subtends the concept of the Hyper-protons modelled as free protons in a space-time having singularities of "white hole" type.
So, a diluted and successed solution will contain contonian remanent waves whose quantity is proportional to the density of matter having disappeared and whose frequency is characteristic of this matter, which allows the authors to introduce the firts model of the drive of animated matter.
Therefore, this work brings an answer to the question, "Why do the High Dilutions operate?". In addition, the authors pursued their investigations and evidenced the emission of Beta radiations from these solutions whatever their concentrations are, so enforcing, in the field of the physics, the basics of their theory of High Dilutions.
To answer to the Samuel Hahnemann question : "What really happens has to be at least possible", four authors propose a theoretical model and the experimental validation of the diluted-succussed solutions used in the therapeutical frame of the homoeopathic doctrine.
This work under the direction of Dr Conte is multi disciplinary and interdisciplinary. It is presented in a book entitled Theory of High Dilutions & Experimental Aspects. The French and English versions of the volume I have been published in 1996 by Polytechnica (Paris) and versions of the volume II in 2000: Theory of High Dilution. Application to Life.
To order the books: Acheter Livre en Ligne - Histoire, Economie, Stratégie Militaire - Economica
Dr Yves Lasne (left) and Dr Rolland Conte discussing the Theory of High Dilutions - Application to life, published in 2000.
Summary of the volume I, by Paul Callinan M.Sc. N.D. D.Hom. can be found at
iiNet | naked dsl - broadband - adsl - phone - voip
A book review by Jay Yasgur in
http://www.minimum.com/reviews/jacondil.htm
Equipment and Method
Measurements were carried on a large range of diluted-succussed solutions, prepared under different physico-chemical situations well controlled, on human biological liquids, animal biological liquids (cats, horses, cows, snakes...), organ extracts and on cellular cultures.
The theoretical methods applied are based on the current corpus of science: Theory of Ethers, Quantum Theory of the Relativistic Fields, Contonian Statistics.
The experimental methods are those commonly used: Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (Minispec (20 MHz) from Brcker S.A), specially calibrated for water to get stable signal around 9000 microsec for the 90 pulse and twice that value for the 180 one. Liquid Scintillation (Tricarb 2300 from Packard S.A), Computers on a Local area Network (Hewlett Packard 850 MHz, Power Macintosh 400 MHz). The dilutions-succussions are performed according to the classical principles, the succussion machine allowing to remake exactly the same energy in every given diluted-succussed solution. The water used presented a minimum of relaxation time T2 equal to 2100 millisec to get the required high purity, and therefore comparable data. Finally, various conventional equipment are also used: ultrasonic devices, magnetic field generators, incubators, freezers, automatic pipettes, and so on ....
Edited by Buzsaw, : add word for clarity

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Vacate, posted 02-17-2008 11:14 AM Vacate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Admin, posted 02-17-2008 1:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 142 (476763)
07-26-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Granny Magda
07-26-2008 8:45 AM


Re: Why Homoeopathy is Bunk
Granny Magda writes:
It is safe because there is nothing in it but water on a sugar pill. Homoeopathy is a placebo, that's all. The average homoeopathic remedy is diluted so many times that the remedies you buy have an amount of potentially active ingredient in them equivalent to one drop in all the worlds oceans. Think about that for a minute. Some remedies are actually more diluted, but it makes little difference, because by this point there is none of the original ingredient left in the bottle; it is just water. No wonder it is safe.
OK folks, let's pause right here and get serious. Where is your documentation for the above claim that HP medicines have the equivalent to one drop of medicine into all of the world's oceans, i.e. nothing but water and sugar?
You say "many times." Well, Granny, we know that many times all health care methodologies are abused, misused and fraudulent, so what about the other times when honesty, science, experiential expertise and integrity is applied to the homeopatic methodology?
Edited by Buzsaw, : replace period with question mark

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Granny Magda, posted 07-26-2008 8:45 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Asgara, posted 07-26-2008 4:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 120 by molbiogirl, posted 07-26-2008 4:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 123 by Granny Magda, posted 07-26-2008 7:55 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 142 (476767)
07-26-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rahvin
07-26-2008 9:58 AM


Minute but detectable.
Rahvin writes:
Homeopathy consists of diluting a medication tot he point where there is no longer a detectable amount of the active ingredient.
I would say detectable, but minute is more in line with reality. I've quoted just enough of this objective and fair/balanced link to entice interested folks to read. It takes only a few minutes to read the whole thing consisting of one page.
An Introduction to Homeopathy by Karyn Siegel-Maier
This article originally appeared, in part, in Natural Living Today magazine
Two months ago, Stephen, an active 37 year old Chef from Maryland, awoke to severe lower back pain that left him partially immobilized. Stephen’s family doctor prescribed an anti-inflammatory to alleviate his chronic pain, but without satisfactory result. Three weeks later, he saw an orthopedic surgeon............ Desperate for relief, Stephen decided to discontinue his painkillers and try a homeopathic treatment. “Within three days .............
Dianne, a paralegal from Monteray, California, watched helplessly while her infant nephew nearly died from internal bleeding of an unknown origin. After extensive testing, ............ My sister finally treated him with a homeopathic remedy and he began to improve immediately............
............................ In the 1990’s, sales of homeopathic remedies have surpassed $200 million each year. What are these medicines and how do they work?......................
.........Hanhemann worked to refine his system of homeopathy and eventually established two fundamental principles. The first was the Law of Similars which......................
..........The second fundamental principle, the Law of Infinitesimals, maintains that the smaller the dose, the more effective it will be in mobilizing the body’s defense mechanisms against disease................ Furthermore, he proposed that a homeopathic solution must be “activated” .......... The allopaths argued that such extreme distillation resulted in a vile of mere water, and they seized the opportunity to label Hahnemann as a quack and his theories as scientific voodoo. ............
.............However, there have been some 20th century attempts to account for this mystery. ..............
........In 1988, French allergist Jacques Benveniste, M.D., set forth a theory that homeopathic micro-dosages may be effective due to a property of water not yet clearly understood; in effect, a kind of “memory.” ...............while those examined in a placebo group showed none. But do they work? ............
.........In 1989, a British placebo-controlled, double-blind study tested Oscillococcinum, a typical homeopathic flu remedy, on 487 people. .............. Another placebo-controlled, double-blind study took place in Germany in 1990 on 61 people suffering from varicose veins. ...........
While homeopathy has long been taken seriously in Europe, it wasn’t until 1994 that a study on a homeopathic preparation appeared in an American medical journal. .............
...........Several studies have been published in British Medical Journals in recent years. .................
............Not everyone agrees that homeopathic medicine is an effective or even valid mode of treatment. ...............
.........The homeopath’s response to this argument is that most preparations are in concentrations well within the Avogadro limit. .................
.............In spite of continued scientific debate, homeopathy has made a significant comeback in the U.S. and is being incorporated into the treatments offered by various medical practitioners, including those “conventional.”
..........Unlike allopathic physicians, homeopaths do not necessarily treat a specific disorder, but strive to achieve a balance between all of the body’s systems, ......................
............“Homeopathy has shown itself to be quite useful over the past 150 years. Had it not, it would have been eliminated by the powers of political medicine a long time ago. This is not some sort of “New-Agey” thing. It is precise medicine based on principles and practice.”

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rahvin, posted 07-26-2008 9:58 AM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Asgara, posted 07-26-2008 5:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 142 (476828)
07-26-2008 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Granny Magda
07-26-2008 7:55 PM


Re: Why Homoeopathy is Bunk
Thanks very much, Granny for going to the trouble of explaining this all to me.
What would be your responses be to the following from the link I cited? For example, things like the petuitary gland analogy, vaccinations and allergy shots?
Robert L. Park, noted physicist and Executive Director of the American Physical Society, expresses his views on homeopathy with adherence to the basic laws of chemistry, specifically those imposed by Avogadro’s number, which limits the amount of dilution to retain any of the original substance. “Since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30c solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1 followed by 60 zeroes. This would, according to Park, require a container more than 30 billion times the size of the Earth.”
The homeopath’s response to this argument is that most preparations are in concentrations well within the Avogadro limit. However, many are not. But there are several examples of the potency of very dilute substances occurring naturally. For example, the pituitary gland secretes the thyroid-stimulating hormone that regulates every cell of the body, and yet its concentration in the blood is 1 in 10,000 million. Furthermore, contemporary medicine commonly uses two methods of treatment that support both the effectiveness of micro-dosages and the theory of “like cures like”: vaccinations and allergy shots.
Ellen Goldman, ND, DHANP, is a Naturopath Physician specializing in classical homeopathy, and Chair of the Homeopathy Department at Bastyr University where she has taught since 1990. “The simple answer to the question how does homeopathy work,” says Goldman, “is that we don’t know. But, it’s important to bear in mind that for the longest time we didn’t know why putting an acupuncture needle into a certain point worked to relieve pain. Now, there are machines that can measure the difference in the electromagnetic fields around these points.” Goldman also asserts that certain areas of the brain can effect all of the body’s systems, including one’s emotional well-being. “I believe that homeopathic medicines could be stimulating the limbic area of the brain. I can live with the fact that I don’t know exactly how my homeopathic medicines work, but the improved state of health of my patients is proof that it does.”
In spite of continued scientific debate, homeopathy has made a significant comeback in the U.S. and is being incorporated into the treatments offered by various medical practitioners, including those “conventional.” For Cheryl, an RN from Arizona, homeopathy was an answer to prayer. Being multi-chemically sensitive, Cheryl cannot tolerate synthetic drugs to combat her numerous allergies. Instead, her M.D. prepares homeopathic solutions in his office for her. These remedies says Cheryl, “have helped give quality back to my life.”
Just today I took a double dosage (2) of my homeopathic allergy pills. I took two since we were heading out on a highway through lots of vegetation for about 20 miles to church. We came back home via a longer scenic route. Interestingly, shortly after dissolving the pills in my mouth I had a brief allergic reaction sneezing three times and appearing that a significant allergic day was ahead. However after this initial reaction I had no more allergic symptoms the rest of the day, even taking the long route home later in the day.
Before I discovered this homeopathic product, nothing worked as efficiently as this product for me.
My notion is that the dosage triggered the brief early reaction and enhanced my immune system's ability to take over from there. I've been on this product nearly all summer. Here in upstate NY we've had a great growing season with lots of pollen and this product appears to be doing quite well. I do avoid wheat gluten for the most part which helps also, but this is not the first year that I've done that.
The product is called BioAllers, Ferndale WA. I have it in both liquid and pill form. It has 20 active ingredients, 14 of which are 12X and 6 of them 6X. Most of these are various pollens.
As noted, there are aspects of this methodology which are somewhat mysterious and little understood, but hey, noted theoretical physicist Richard Feynman has admitted that this is also the case with some aspects of QM and theoretic physics.
Talk about throwing money away, at least with homeopathy, some of which is likely quakery, one need not worry about side effects like stroke and death which is all too often the case with the pharms as one throws away their hard earned $$$.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Granny Magda, posted 07-26-2008 7:55 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by DrJones*, posted 07-26-2008 11:13 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 130 by Granny Magda, posted 07-27-2008 5:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 142 (476830)
07-26-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Asgara
07-26-2008 5:01 PM


Re: Minute but detectable.
Asgara writes:
Buz, could you explain what a 13C solution is? or 200C?
Granny Magda has been helpful by explaining this. The magnitude of the numbers brings to mind the acceptable magnitude of numbers applied in science relative to the BB, evolution, probabilities of abiogenesis, etc.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Asgara, posted 07-26-2008 5:01 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 142 (476853)
07-27-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by DrJones*
07-26-2008 11:13 PM


Re: Why Homoeopathy is Bunk
DrJones writes:
Really Buz? What agency regulates the alternative health industry and keeps track of complications, side effects and deaths due to alternative treatments?
Since food supplements are considered food they are subject to oversight by the FDA, but it is the FDA's responsibility to show that a food or food supplement is unsafe.
Unlike prescription drugs, food supplements, over the counter products and food products are not obligated to show that their products are safe. That is the responsibility of the FDA.
Comphrey tea, a food product that I grow and consume regularly for health and enjoyment has been banned by FDA and still off the market for decades. Comphrey has many excellent health benefits used both internally and as poultices etc. I believe the root is the only part of the plant one may overdose on. I believe anyone would need to take an exhorbant quantity of comphrey tea to get sick on it.
Way back in the 90's a few folks who got carried away taking too much comphrey root product got sick on it. I believe one death was attributed to that herb. However hundreds of thousands of deaths per year are tolerated by FDA via doctor prescribed pharms, not to mention the millions of other terrible side effects allowable by the drug industry products.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by DrJones*, posted 07-26-2008 11:13 PM DrJones* has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2008 3:21 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 142 (476954)
07-28-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Coragyps
07-27-2008 4:26 PM


Expensive Water
Coragyps writes:
And what are the odds that these bozos use water from anywhere other than the kitchen sink?
Perhaps the purity of the water is one of the determinate factors as to which products work and which don't.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Coragyps, posted 07-27-2008 4:26 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Coragyps, posted 07-30-2008 7:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 142 (476956)
07-28-2008 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Granny Magda
07-27-2008 5:01 PM


Probability Factor
Granny Magda writes:
Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right. Islam is very popular, but neither one of us thinks that that makes it more likely to be correct. As for miracles cures...
Thanks again Granny, for kindly taking the time for your indepth response to the cited link. You've taught me some interesting things. I can't say I'm capable of a response other than as follows, but I'll continue to delve into this topic and do some back reading on this thread, etc.
I would say that the probability of something happening via the intelligently designed extreme dilution of pollens relative to homeopathy are greater than the probability that abiogenesis happened randomly with no ID and progressed into surviving organisms.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Granny Magda, posted 07-27-2008 5:01 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Rahvin, posted 07-29-2008 11:58 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 142 (477172)
07-30-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Rahvin
07-29-2008 11:58 AM


Re: Probability Factor
Thanks much, Rahvin, for taking the time to explain these things. I'm still not convinced and unable to respond until I assimilate enough of this info into my thinking to do so sensibly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Rahvin, posted 07-29-2008 11:58 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
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