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Author Topic:   Archetypes: Natural or Artificial?
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 23 (484407)
09-28-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Fosdick
09-27-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Mumbo-jumbo bullshit
Well, even if your questions are rhetorical they do have answers.
Do you really know why a photon is both a particle and a wave
Simply because it is. Why is grass a plant?
And why does the juice in a copper wire behave like water in a hose?
It doesn't. Water in a hose is several times more complicated than electricity in a wire.
Why does gravity obey an inverse square law like that of a electromagnetism?
It's simply how something spreads out in a spherical volume.
And why are planetary orbits round or elliptical instead of square or rectangular?
Those are the solutions to Newton's equations or rather the fact that gravity acts with an inverse square combined with F = ma means that those are the orbits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2008 10:53 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 11:21 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 23 (484411)
09-28-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fosdick
09-28-2008 11:21 AM


Re: Archetypes transcend modern science
My point here is that science, as we know it today, has done a better job of resolving those archetypes, but they were already known to exist in both nature and in the minds of men (and probably women) long before Newton got a hold of them. The ancients, some of them anyway, saw force as a lion”perhaps "the force of being"”and they called it Leo. Later it was described as F =ma.
That is totally wrong. Do you know what links all the forces? What makes them all similar? It's the fact that they are gauge invariant, which is not something the ancients knew. I'm well aware of the history of pre-scientific conceptions of force and they were semi-accurate. However there is still a difference between force as understood by Newton and force as understood originally. Newton found the direct link was between force and acceleration, something which wasn't known. Also Galileo who first argued that force had nothing to do with steady motion, which was the common perception at the time. Science did not merely clear up or tighten this understanding. So Force was not "really" known before these insights, only the concept of physical effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 11:21 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 1:27 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 23 (484421)
09-28-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Fosdick
09-28-2008 1:27 PM


Re: Archetypes transcend modern science
Wouldn't you agree that the concept of force was well known to the ancients as something that involved both strength and motion.
No I would not. Physical effort is not the same as force in the scientific sense. For instance force has nothing to do with strength and motion, it is related to mass and acceleration. One of the insights of Galileo was that it had nothing to do with motion.
King David, The Lion, forcibly raped the fair maiden, because he was stronger and therefore more powerful than she. These are all ancient archetypes of mechanics.
I'm not sure what to make of this. It is an english translation of a forceful act of an ancient semitic king. I don't see how it provides an archetype also borrowed by Newton for his mechanics.
Newton didn’t go out and invent the word force.
True and Maxwell didn't invent the word field, but that doesn't mean the electromagnetic field is a linguistic refinement of an enclosure where you grow crops.
There is only a superficial relation between "force" in the every day sense and the scientific sense. Although they share a word for etymological reasons, one is not a sophisticated version of the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 1:27 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 09-28-2008 1:59 PM Son Goku has not replied
 Message 12 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 4:42 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 23 (484778)
10-01-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Fosdick
09-28-2008 4:42 PM


Re: Archetypes transcend modern science
When we speak of mechanics we speak of mass, length and time, which are the fundamental units of motion. You know that.
Yes, I am aware of this. Although it does not connect with the rest of the discussion.
When we speak of mechanics we speak of mass, length and time, which are the fundamental units of motion. You know that.
Force has nothing to do with emotion. I'm not going to start debating the truth of a fact which has been established since the Renaissance.
Are you saying that pyramid builders, spear makers, and chariot drivers had no concept of force? Are you saying that a cave man didn't know the difference between a small stone and large rock when either one was dropped on his toe? I'm saying he knew quite well that the rock would hurt more than the stone because he already knew instinctively about the direct relationship between mass and force.
Obviously the ancients were not stupid, but they did not have the scientific concept of Force. Force in the scientific sense is not like Force in the intuitive sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2008 4:42 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 10-01-2008 5:56 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
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