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Author | Topic: What IS Science And What IS NOT Science? | |||||||||||||||||||
FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: Quite a few others have already posted in response to this and they have basically said that this is an example of "poor science" at best. Actually, I'll come out and state that as described by you in the above quote, this is not a valid scientific experiment in any way. Look at the hypothesis. He's working to falsify his own hypothesis that guppies can mutate into a "new" species by showing that they can't. WTF...are you kidding me? Think about this. Chris Miller is trying to prove that something he states can happen (guppies will eventually mutate into a new species) by showing that actually it can't happen. That's not science Buz, that's bullshit. Seriously dude, think about it. At what point does Chris get to say “I’ve done it, I have proven that guppies can’t mutate out of species” (whatever the hell that means)? One generation? Two? Three? Ten-thousand? When does the experiment end? When does Chris get to say the he has disproved the Theory of Evolution? Admit it Buzsaw, this is nothing more than a totally bogus “experiment” designed by a creationist to use at his “church seminars” to further convince his audience that the Theory of Evolution is not valid and the God did it all . nothing more. It’s a sham perpetrated on the scientifically naive and I find this sort of thing reprehensible, as should you. For example, Chris Miller, the geologist who did the science seminar at our church is working to falsify (abe: his) creo hypothesis that guppies stop variations of micromutations at a given perameter/boundary, preventing them from mutating out of the species. And to show you that Chris Miller’s experiment is total BS, think of it this way. I can do the same thing Buz. I have a hypothesis which says that God can mutate guppies into whales, and I’m now going to set out to disprove that hypothesis. I have hundreds of guppies in tanks located in my basement and I will start the experiment tonight. When do I stop? When do I get to say that I have disproved the existence of God, Buzsaw?
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Holmes writes: I was thinking the same thing myself. At the same time though, I agree with the point Percy is trying to make, and I have little doubt that he's correct in his assessment of Chris Miller's work (namely that it will never be reviewed by scientists nor will the experiment be replicated). However, I feel that Chris Miller's experiment is unscientific not based on this sort of stuff, but rather solely on the hypothesis he stated (or, at least as stated by Buzsaw) which is:
I get what you are saying, that an isolated experimenter's work, if forever outside the knowledge of other scientists, will never be part of the "fabric of science", if we conceive of that as the body of scientific knowledge (RAZDs discussion of cumulative knowledge).Buzsaw in post 145 writes: For example, Chris Miller, the geologist who did the science seminar at our church is working to falsify (abe: his) creo hypothesis that guppies stop variations of micromutations at a given perameter/boundary, preventing them from mutating out of the species. Now, the way I read that is that he's attempting to disprove an event that has yet to happen. How can he test whether or not a guppy can mutate into a "non-guppy"? It's impossible. That, in and of itself, removes his "experiment" from the realm of science. And of course I have completely ignored what his null hypothesis would be, or how he would define “species”, but to me none of that matters since, again, he is attempting to disprove future possibilities. There is no conceivable endpoint to his "experiment". It's total BS and is probably just set up to "disprove" evolution to his audience.
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: He doesn't have a testable hypothesis. What he is doing may be fun and interesting but it is most certainly NOT science.
I have emailed back to ask him if he regards this as doing science and to ask also if there are any of his activities which he considers to be actually doing science relative to the evo/creo issues. Buzsaw writes: Thus far you have provided one example of what you consider to be scientific research that, as it turn out, is not actually scientific research at all. Can we perhaps get another example?
I know most of you consider their science as poor science but I remind you that this thread is not a debate on who's science is considered good or poor science by members but rather whether what is being done is doing science.
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: Come on now Buz, you're asking "us" to read through quite a few articles and comment on their scientific validity, when most likely many of the article are outside "our" area(s) of expertise. These papers are not novelist manuscripts, Percy. They are science research papers produced by bonafide scientists like Baumgartner et al. Are you telling the www that none of these ID creo scientist's science research papers have any evidence in them and that none of them can be considered to be science? You have been asked by others to simply pick one of these articles as being something you find particularly convincing. Why not do that one small thing and save us all a great deal of time? So Buzsaw . which paper do you feel best represents a {great} contribution to science by a creo scientist? But first, let me ask you this: How many of these articles have been published in peer reviewed scientific journals? Hell, how many have even been submitted for peer review? If your answer is "none" then my next question to you is: "Why not?"
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Buzsaw writes: But his reason(s) for rejecting radiometric dating is/are totally bogus Buzsaw. Honestly, have you looked at counter arguments to his claims about why radiometric dating doesn't work? That "perhaps decay rates have not been constant" can be refuted by a moderately intelligent high school student. but he also meets head on the primary evo objection, being radiometric dating showing in his scientific research paper clearly why he rejects the dating methodology which supports the uniformitarian non-catastrophic hypothesis. But in relation to The Big Picture, am I missing something here? Maybe you or someone else can explain this to me, as I am most certainly not well versed in Geology. But tell me, if "catastrophic plate tectonics" (CPT) was a viable option, don't you think somebody would have noticed? Look what happened to San Francisco in 1906 when the plates shifted just a few feet over a 50-60 second time period. Ya think somewhere, someone would have noticed CPT and maybe mentioned it to someone. Maybe wrote it down as a story to be passed on from generation to generation. Oh wait, I remember now, some dude in the Middle East noticed, and built his self a boat. Of course, no one else on the planet seemed too annoyed with CPT and their lives apparently went on just fine, thank you very much. For that matter Buz, do you even know what needs to be taken into account and/or ignored in order for CPT to be a viable option? You expect me to believe that all the ocean's floors lifted upwards of one kilometer and no one except for Noah bothered to notice? Think about this for a second Buzsaw. The friggen ocean floors lifted almost one mile? All the floors, of all the oceans!! One kilometer! I dare say that the evidence for such an event would be overwhelmingly obvious and abundant. Yet no one noticed. Nor is such an event even necessary, for that matter, unless one needs to explain a Global flood. Assume for a second or two that there was no Global Flood story. Would we ever even consider the "necessity" of CPT? I think not. Look, the one and only reason CPT was put forth as any sort of story was to explain how a Global Flood may have occurred. Without that "need" CPT is not needed, nor are the numerous leaps of faith one needs to take to accept CPT. So I guess the only viable conclusion we can draw after reading this paper is that it most definitely is NOT science, and here's why.As Percy has explained repeatedly, we in science do not start with a conclusion and set about to prove it. We make observations, ask questions, develop TESTABLE hypotheses, design and conduct experiments, analyses the results, present these to our peers for review, and then accept or reject our conclusion(s). Notice how "conclusions" is the last step.
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Bret writes: Yeah, we just make all this shit up as we go along. I guess I might as well go over to that big building with all those books and scientific journals in it and just throw them away. They're obviously just full of a bunch of made-up bull shit.
Evolutionists are like this they assume something is a fact without anything other than double talk.
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FliesOnly Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 797 From: Michigan Joined: |
Hi Buzsaw:
As Holmes has already pointed out to you, the "definition" we use is not new. No one here has redefined science to exclude creationism or Intelligent Design. Nope, we don't need to because both of these ideas fail to meet the requirements of being scientific solely based on their own methodology. Look, here are three statements from the latest paper you claimed as an example of creationists conducting valid scientific research (which I found at the following link: ICR | The Institute for Creation Research)
Creationist Research Paper writes: Where are the scientific tests of even just these three statements? Do you see now what it is we have been trying to say? 1. Second, we believe that the pre-Flood ocean crust was mafic -- most probably basaltic. Once again three reasons exist for this inference: 1) Pre-Flood basaltic ocean crust is suggested by ophiolites (containing pillow basalts and presumed ocean sediments) which are thought to represent pieces of ocean floor and obducted onto the continents early in the Flood; 2) If, as claimed above, the pre-Flood craton was sialic, then buoyancy forces would make a mafic pre-Flood ocean crust into a natural basin for ocean water. This would prevent ocean water from overrunning the continents; and 3) If, as claimed above, the continents were sialic, mafic material would be necessary to drive the subduction required in our flood model... 2. We feel that the Flood was initiated as slabs of oceanic crust broke loose and subducted along thousands of kilometers of pre-Flood continental margins. We are, however, not ready at this time to speculate on what event or events might have initiated that subduction... 3. Post-Flood GeologyAfter the global effects of the Flood ended, the earth continued to experience several hundred years of residual catastrophism [7]. A cooling lithosphere is likely to have produced a pattern of decreasing incidence [68] and intensity of volcanism (such as appears to be evidenced in Cenozoic sialic volcanism in the Western United States [77]). The large changes in crustal thicknesses produced during the Flood left the earth in isostatic disequilibrium. lsostatic readjustments with their associated intense mountain uplift, earthquake, and volcanic activity would have occurred for hundreds of years after the global affects of the Flood ended (e.g. [83]). In fact, considering the current nature of the mantle, there has not been sufficient time since the end of the Flood for complete isostatic equilibrium to be attained. As a result, current geologic activity can be seen as continued isostatic readjustments to Flood events. Modern earthquake and volcanic activity is in some sense relict Flood dynamics... The papers you presented as valid scientific research present no actual science. They simple say "why" they feel certain things are the way they are or how certain events may have unfolded, but they conduct no experiments to see if those wants and desires have any support. Here again are the steps needed to conduct valid scientific research. You need to make some sort of observation of a natural event.You ask questions about that event. You formulate a testable hypothesis or testable hypotheses. You design and conduct experiments to address both your test hypothesis {es} and your null hypothesis {es}. You analyze the results and then either accept or reject you test hypothesis. You present your findings and conclusions to your peers for review. Many things can happen from here, but basically... Jack's a doughnut, there you go. Creationism and ID essentially fall apart as scientific endeavors at the "Hypothesis Formation" stage. They either formulate non-testable hypotheses or they formulate hypotheses but conduct no tests to see if they can be supported. If I wrong here, show me where. Show me either a testable creationist hypothesis or an experiment conducted on a creationist’s hypothesis.
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