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Author | Topic: Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
As opposed to a single singular starting point?
A Dark Energy start from say 1 million points? Creationists often make an issue out of this singularity point. I not so sure there is much mileage to get when once considers that the CMB can be observed. CMB imaging should have buried this issue once and for all. This was the only half-decent challenge to come from creationists IMO.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
I put "multiple creation points halton arp" into the engine.
Hit 2 was a creationist site. It appears that Arp's work has more to do with matter being created and not space.
quote: Not a space issue, or an issue of Dark Energy having many starting points (as opposed to a Big Bang singularity)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If light is moving then there has to be time along the space it is moving across. Let's accept for the time being that is true. So what!!? I could set a clock, perhaps to move real slow. Or fast. It would still move. Indeed, proving that the star game shows that we KNOW the distance to the SN. Thanks. Because your clock affects both paths equally -- they are in the same space, just as our solar system is all in the same space. If it is not true, then what is actually happening? What is actually happening appears equivalent to it being true. If there is nothing to distinguish between true and not-true, then the concept is pointless and irrelevant. Let's put it this way The existence of A is totally explained by theory Bor The existence of A is explained by theory B modified by concept C, with this modification being completely undescernable, unevidenced and unmeasurable. Which is the better explanation to use B or B+C Well if we subtract B from B+C and have nothing left over that would alter the explanation, then C is irrelevant ... This, btw, is how Occam's razor works and it is why your fantasy has no legs. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
razd writes: Actually, having time different here than where a star is does the opposite. It would need to be the same at all points to know distances.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Actually, having time different here than where a star is does the opposite. And the evidence for this is zilch, while the evidence against this is both massive and unambiguous. You seem to have been taken over by some strange form of religious zealotry which blinds you to facts, reason, and logic. You shouldn't be posting in the Science Forums here.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Actually, having time different here than where a star is does the opposite. ... Says the person who denies that the game models this, and still ends up with a scientific distance to SN1987A. Of course, admitting that fact would mean that the fantasy is exposed as the garbage concept it is. Ignoring evidence that contradicts your belief is delusion. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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creation writes: Movement does not mean moving in time as it is on earth.I could set a clock, perhaps to move real slow. Or fast. It would still move. If you took the same clock with the same settings to multiple places it would tick at the same rate.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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creation writes: percy writes: You're repeating yourself instead of responding to what was said.The answer hasn't changed. We know how much time passes for objects at great distances because we know how certain processes occur here on Earth, Hilarious!! This response indicates a lack of comprehension.
You just admitted you think you know how time is there because you are here and time works a certain way here. When we look at the spectrum of light emitted from the sun, we can tell what gasses are present in the suns atmosphere by the lines of absorption. Different elements absorb light at different wavelengths. When we look at the spectrum of light arriving from distant stars and galaxies we see the same absorption lines, only shifted according to their velocity of line-of-sight recession. This means that these distant stars are composed as the same elements as our sun, though of course in differing amounts and at different temperatures. The relative position of the absorption lines means that time passes there in the same way it passes here. This is based on observations and not on beliefs.
and we can observe how fast those processes proceed for distant objects. NO. You only observe HERE IN time! We observe from wherever we happen to be at the time, whether with or own eyes or by way of remote probes. And no matter where we happen to observe from, the laws of physics that we observe are always the same.
For example, you can find the spectra of absorption for some common elements at Stellar Spectra, and here's the spectra for hydrogen:
We see this same absorption spectra when we look at distant stars, confirming that what happens here also happens there, but shifted toward lower longer wavelengths because of speed of recession and the expansion of space. So what!!?? We see light here, and apparently it tells us certain elements exist in the star. That does not tell us how much time is involved. Note: If you want to copy a part of a message that includes dBCodes for images or formatting, click on Peek Mode so you can see the raw text used to create the message. Most certainly it tells us how much time is involved. f = c / λ, where f is cycles/second and c is meters/second. Most certainly time is a critical component.
Depends how you define here. Your house? Your neighborhood? Your city? Your country? Your planet? Your solar system? Your galaxy? Your universe? Here in our universe, everywhere we look the laws of nature are the same out there as they are here. How about what we know? What star have you crossed a street at? The actual question was why you think we can only know time exists where we are. Crossing the street was just an example. Try to keep up.
I have been generous and called the fishbowl the solar system and area. That is further than you will ever go, or any probe. Remember, your probe is less than a light day away. Get back to us when it is a whole week away! The probe is just an example of your ever shrinking religious claims. As the probe becomes more distant your religiously based claims dwindle. But the Voyager probes are just one of the sources of data we have for why the laws of nature here are the same out there.
All you are doing is rejecting direct observations because they don't fit with your religious beliefs. Absurdly false. Patently obvious, actually. You have neither provided evidence nor engaged any evidence offered.
I do not reject what we see here, or the time it takes here to move or etc etc! I reject beliefs that involve what is not seen. The evidence provided is what we see.
What is true both observationally and theoretically is that the speed of light is the same throughout the universe. Based on what? How do you measure speed of light say, 10 billion light years away?? Ha. You made the claim, so let's see what you got. c is a fundamental constant of the universe, and because f = c / λ we know from our observations of the behavior of matter in distant stars and galaxies that the speed of light is the same there as here. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Most certainly it tells us how much time is involved. f = c / λ, where f is cycles/second and c is meters/second. Most certainly time is a critical component. I think the more important argument is that it implies that the same processes (the ones that are responsible for the light emission in the first place) are occurring at the same rate. In short by verifying that sun-like stars have spectra that look like our own sun, we have evidence that physics, including the passage of time, is the same as it is here even at places that are monstrous distances away. The absorptions and emissions that make the spectra look different from a pure blackbody spectrum, are things that we know actually took place at the place where the light was emitted, and are governed by exactly the same physics as we use here. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
The evidence for a same time in deep space is zilch. God any actual science?
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
razd writes: Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.
Says the person who denies that the game models this, and still ends up with a scientific distance to SN1987A. Of course, admitting that fact would mean that the fantasy is exposed as the garbage concept it is. Ignoring evidence that contradicts your belief is delusion.
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
[qs=taq]...[qs]No. You have never taken any clock out of the fishbowl actually. We know you believe the whole of creation has to be just like the fishbowl, but you do not know that at all.
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
percy writes: When we look at the spectrum of light emitted from the sun, we can tell what gasses are present in the suns atmosphere by the lines of absorption. Different elements absorb light at different wavelengths. When we look at the spectrum of light arriving from distant stars and galaxies we see the same absorption lines, only shifted according to their velocity of line-of-sight recession. This means that these distant stars are composed as the same elements as our sun, though of course in differing amounts and at different temperatures. The relative position of the absorption lines means that time passes there in the same way it passes here. This is based on observations and not on beliefs. Not in any way is that true. The position of lines tells us nothing about time there. Only here. Yes there are elements and gasses out there. However that is only what we see, so who knows what else is also out there that we cannot detect? Science admits seeing only 5% remember? Not only that, but it does no good at all to see some elements when we do not know how far away or big they are! You MUST have time exist the same as here to know distances.
We observe from wherever we happen to be at the time, whether with or own eyes or by way of remote probes. And no matter where we happen to observe from, the laws of physics that we observe are always the same. IN ALL cases you are in the fishbowl of earth and solar system area! No exceptions. Thus far and no further.
We see this same absorption spectra when we look at distant stars, confirming that what happens here also happens there, but shifted toward lower longer wavelengths because of speed of recession and the expansion of space. It is almost meaningless that the light we see here behaves a certain way here. That tells us nothing about time there. Without time there being as here, no distances/mass/sizes etc etc are known. E=We could get spectra from the space station of hydrogen also...so? That would be significant because we do know how far away that is.
Most certainly it tells us how much time is involved. f = c / λ, where f is cycles/second and c is meters/second. Most certainly time is a critical component. Most certainly not actually. The C is only representing light acting and moving IN time HERE. In fact all the symbols and letters in your formula are fishbowl figures!
The actual question was why you think we can only know time exists where we are. Crossing the street was just an example. Try to keep up. The actual point was that a street on earth is not appropriate in measuring deep space..
The probe is just an example of your ever shrinking religious claims. As the probe becomes more distant your religiously based claims dwindle. But the Voyager probes are just one of the sources of data we have for why the laws of nature here are the same out there.
The Voyager is on the fringes (at best) of the fishbowl. That has zero to do with nature in the past.
[qs]
The evidence provided is what we see.[/q] Then you see less than I thought.
c is a fundamental constant of the universe, You are mistaken as shown. C is the speed of light in the fishbowl! You only assumed it reflected the whole universe.
and because f = c / λ we know from our observations of the behavior of matter in distant stars and galaxies that the speed of light is the same there as here. Not at all. You do not just get to declare the speed of light in the fishbowl some universal constant. The fine constant structure also is a fishbowl concept. So is any force or anything else here. Energy also.
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creation Member (Idle past 1973 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
nonukes writes: Too bad none of that tells us anything abut time there. Since we NEED time to exist to know distances and sizes, seeing hydrogen or something doesn't help since we do not know how far away it is. .. Also, when we see it here, at any rate....that is the rate here. We only could see it that way here where time exists!
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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From your Message 700, Message 701 and Message 702:
creation writes: The evidence for a same time in deep space is zilch.... Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space. ... You have never taken any clock out of the fishbowl actually. We know you believe the whole of creation has to be just like the fishbowl, but you do not know that at all. Much, much more than zilch evidence has been presented to you. You're just avoiding addressing it.
God any actual science? Little Freudian typo there? --Percy
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