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Author Topic:   Did the expansion rate of the universe exceed lightspeed?
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 17 of 86 (458775)
03-02-2008 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
03-01-2008 1:41 PM


Speed of Light
Can we be certain that the speed of light has been 'constant' since the beginning of time?
Could it be that the rate of expansion of the universe is the limiting speed in the universe and that the speed of light and the rate of expansion of the universe are intrinsically related or even one and the same thing?
This would mean that to all intents and purposes the speed of light is contant from our limited point of view but not in cosmological terms. During the period of expansion the speed of light would have been much greater than it is now for example
Before anyone jumps down my throat - I am not proposing this as true or even supported. I am thinking about why a certain limiting speed should exist in the universe and am interested as to any possible correlation between that limiting speed and the properties of the universe as we know them.
Is there evidence either for or against the idea above and if so what is that evidence?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 03-01-2008 1:41 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 8:03 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 86 (458783)
03-02-2008 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by cavediver
03-02-2008 8:03 AM


Re: Speed of Light
Now I am confused (and I suspect I am not alone)
I thought the limit of the speed of light was related to the increase of an objects mass as it approaches the speed of light and that at the speed of light the mass would be infinite thus requiring infinite force to accelerate it further
In the case of physical matter at least there is a limit. Is this wrong?

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 Message 18 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 8:03 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Explorer, posted 03-02-2008 8:26 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 03-02-2008 9:17 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 28 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 2:27 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 86 (458801)
03-02-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
03-02-2008 9:17 AM


Re: Speed of Light
Well explained. Even to the point were I think I actually get it now. So thankyou for that.
In terms of the OP - What reference frame do we use to determine the rate of expansion of the universe?
Where is the conceptual clock and what does that show as the universe expands? How does the frame of reference maintain relativity intact during periods of expansion at rates that appear to be faster than the speed of light in other frames of reference. Which frames of reference are these that do suggest expansion rates greater than the speed of light?
Is the rate of expansion of the universe (esp the idea of it exceeding the speed of light) even a meaningful concept if the frame of reference is taken into account?
I am well baffled by the expanding universe now.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 24 by Chiroptera, posted 03-02-2008 11:30 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 25 of 86 (458829)
03-02-2008 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Chiroptera
03-02-2008 11:30 AM


Re: General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
Another good explanation
What does the equator on this imaginary sphere represent in terms of the lifecycle of the universe?
Is rate of expansion a misleading phrase? It seems more like a rate of divergence/convergence?

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 Message 24 by Chiroptera, posted 03-02-2008 11:30 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 03-02-2008 1:08 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 03-02-2008 1:14 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 32 of 86 (458873)
03-02-2008 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Chiroptera
03-02-2008 1:14 PM


Re: General Relativity is different from Special Relativity
Cheers for your very clear and patient explanation. I think I amstrting to get it.
Now I will try and tackle Cavediver's last post!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 03-02-2008 1:14 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 33 of 86 (458876)
03-02-2008 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by cavediver
03-02-2008 2:27 PM


Re: Speed of Light
I think I get the 4d velocity vector and the limit implied by the length of this. I also think I get the difference between a massles particle and a body with rest mass with this way of thinking of things.
The part that I don't get and would appreciate some further explanation of is -
Stationary observers watching you are still moving through time as normal, so you do not appear to have the near infinite velocity you are experiencing. They will see your vector as tipped 45 degrees, equal amounts in time and space. This is what we usually call 'the speed of light'.
The idea of moving in time at the speed of light is in itself quite bizzarre....
So what does this tell us about the rate of the expansion of the universe? Or is the point that I was originally missing the very fact that this has nothing to do with the rate of the epansion of the universe and that the two have absolutely no bearing on each other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 2:27 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 3:09 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 40 of 86 (458891)
03-02-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by cavediver
03-02-2008 3:09 PM


Re: Speed of Light
Well that wraps things up strictly in terms of the OP I guess!!
If you do get a chance to explain further on the stationary observer's view I for on would be interested to hear this.
Anyway - Thanks for your time so far. Interesting stuff.

This message is a reply to:
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