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Author Topic:   COSMOLOGY
rueh
Member (Idle past 3691 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 64 of 159 (489351)
11-26-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by godsriddle
11-26-2008 1:12 PM


Re: Redshift caused by a priori assumption
Hello godriddle,
gr writes:
To preserve their system that was built on the assumption - that the properties of matter do not change relationally with age
Could you provide a propery of matter that has been shown to change with age?
gr writes:
Yet every single atomic clock in the distant universe clocked a different frequency than modern atoms and the differences generally increase with distance.
In what ways is this not effectivly delt with by general/special relativity?

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by godsriddle, posted 11-26-2008 1:12 PM godsriddle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by godsriddle, posted 11-26-2008 2:45 PM rueh has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3691 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 73 of 159 (489368)
11-26-2008 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by godsriddle
11-26-2008 2:45 PM


Re: Redshift caused by a priori assumption
GR writes:
1. Relational changes cannot be defined with precision.
2. They cannot even be measured with precision because even the instruments, the formulas and the units and the “constants” would track with the changes. For example, if all matter is changing relationally, both sides of a balance scale would change equally.
So a relational change is an idea that you have no way of showing that it has occured or is occuring and no way to falsify the idea? Yeah that sounds like creation science. If you have no way to know that it happened then how can you claim that it in fact occured?
gr writes:
We see the past with sight. The properties of all matter are observed to change relationally as billions of galaxies spread out - grow into huge growth spirals - in defiance of every law and principle of science
First off we do not see the past with sight. Most everything we have learned about our universe has come with the advance of technology that lets us view the universe in a spectrum that is invisible to the eye. Secondly on what grounds are you stating that the growth of spiral galaxies conflicts with the laws of science? As Rhrain likes to say please be specific.
gr writes:
General and special relativity are at their heart Aristotlean ideas. They are based on the assumption that the properties of matter are not emergent - that atoms do not normally and continually change with age
I don't know where you are getting your info but there are plenty of examples of emergent properties in science. I don't believe you when you talk about how science does this or does that. I seriously doubt that you study any of the physics behind any of the ideas that you are incredulous about. Be specific what emergent property exactly do you believe is not realized by science. If it is only your relational change property than maybe you could explain how you alone have been able to see this property of the universe where every other scientist and instrument can not.
gr writes:
In Einstein’s system, clocks can change speed due to proximity to massive objects etc. How do we know what is the real time if clocks can change speed?
This property has been observed and has been put to use. Most notably in our GPS systems. The time dialation has to factored in, since the satellites are further away from the Earth's gravitional field. Also it is important to keep in mind that relativity does awy with the concept of universal time. Time is in fact relative to the observer.
Yet countless atomic clocks throughout the vast universe keep on accelerating with age
Which clocks? You have been to other parts of the universe and have seen these clocks?
No perpetual motion atoms are visible.
You have already admitted that this idea of perpetual motion atoms are you concoction. Please stop using made up terms inorder to say how the universe does not behave the way you want it to.
Their clock signals generated two different radio frequencies. The received frequencies continued to decrease as referenced by the Deep Space Networks precision clocks WITH DISTANCE - not speed (Doppler). The farther from the past the signal came, the slower it was compared to local clocks. Apparently all clocks in the universe are accelerating - local clocks are generally the fastest. Primordial atomic clocks clocked minuscule frequencies compared to local atoms. How can scientists explain this without inventing myths about invisible things?
Like I said this is perfectly explained by relativity. Time is relative to the observer.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by godsriddle, posted 11-26-2008 2:45 PM godsriddle has not replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3691 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 111 of 159 (489610)
11-28-2008 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 1:32 PM


John, at what point on our orbit of the sun do we appear to be at the center? What I mean by this is. If we were to take a measurement during summer, and our readings indicated that we are at the center of the universe. Then we did the same measurements during winter, when the Earth is at its furthest extreme to the point where we originally measured, and found our readings to indicate that we are at the center of the universe. How could both readings be correct? What about the orbit of our Galaxy? Obviously any measurement we did now would have to wait 110 million years till we could measure again. However, I would happen to guess however that we would still measure Earth as the center. The reason being, that our perception only stretches out so far with the available technology that we have. At some point the photons have yet to reach us because of distance and because of expansion. This would be true no matter where in the universe you measured. It is in essence, the same as when you look at the horizon. No matter where you are on Earth you always perceive yourself as the center of any visual observation of the horizon. That does not mean you are at the center of the Earth. It merely means any position could be said to be the center. Hawkins explains this concept in even his most basic of published works. You are just ignoring the points that do not fit with what you would like to believe.
Edited by rueh, : spelling

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 1:32 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 6:49 PM rueh has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3691 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 121 of 159 (489651)
11-28-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by johnfolton
11-28-2008 6:49 PM


John I have read plenty of Hawking. The thing is I am not talking to Hawking. I am talkling to you. If you would like to recripicate, we can have a back and forth conversation. If you are just going to paste content from other sites it does no good. I don't get any of your insight and all it ultimatly does is differ the conversation. I appreciate the information you posted and will read it when I have the time. In the mean time I would appreciate an answer instead. At which point along the orbit of the sun, can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe? At which point in our orbit of the milkyway can we consider ourselfs to be at the center of the universe?
Edited by rueh, : No edit. Thought better of it.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 6:49 PM johnfolton has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by johnfolton, posted 11-28-2008 11:16 PM rueh has not replied

  
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