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Author Topic:   Most convincing evidence for evolutionary theory
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 32 of 189 (399505)
05-06-2007 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals
05-05-2007 8:29 PM


Re: Male Nipples
AnswersInGenitals writes:
This argument is a disaster for evolution! It leads to the obvious question: "Why do women have nipples? Evolutionists insist that mammals, including humans, evolved from reptiles. But reptiles don't have nipples
I don't think its a disaster. If humans evolved from reptiles through a long line of random mutations, what is the problem? Evolutionists also claim that we came from single celled organisms.
I think it is a good thing that in the process of answering one question the reader logically comes up with another. There is nothing about evolution that can be answered by one simple reply - just a series of questions and answers.
The only reason such a question would be a disaster is if science did not have an answer to the next question. Thankfully such answers exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-05-2007 8:29 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 51 of 189 (401002)
05-17-2007 7:09 PM


Turkana Boy
I was reading in National Geographic (May 1997) about a fossil called "Turkana Boy". One part of the article states
But the rest of the erectus brain was still evolving, as is evident from the boy's lack of a forehead. His brain's frontal lobes, where complex thinking occurs in modern humans, were relatively small.
The brain, as an adult, would be about the size of a one year old human, but still twice the size of a chimps. This fossil was found in near complete state - and it is not human. More information and a photograph can be found on Wikipedia here
Creationists always seem to claim that there is no evidence; that scientists make their claims based on a bone fragment or some such. This fossil was found in 1984! The article where I read about this is ten years out of date, but once again shows me that there is evidence. Though finding a complete skeleton is rare such things have happened and scientists are not simply basing the theories on a bone fragment.
I am not sure if I would use this fossil as "The most convincing evidence" - but its just another example in a long list that confirms evolution for me.

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 76 of 189 (408950)
07-06-2007 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by IamJoseph
07-06-2007 5:06 AM


Endogenous Retrovirus DNA
IamJoseph writes:
Replace the exam paper 'error', with say a 'comma' being common in the two papers, but not necessarilly in the same equal locations. Would you still conclude as before?
Iceage already answered your question. The paragraph directly above the quote you supplied stated:
Iceage writes:
In addition, to the signature the *location* within the genome is noted. Now when these finger prints are looked for in the genomes of related species they can be found in the very same locations!
I would also say that a 'comma' downplays the complexity of a retrovirus. I much prefer the analogy of the error, because a retrovirus could also be said to be an error of sorts.
the equity of its spacetime does not prove a direct cross-specie subsequence.
If I am understanding you correctly, I would agree. This is not proof of a direct cross-species relationship. It does however provide support of the preexisting theory. Particularly that we share more Endogenous Retrovirus DNA with old world primates than we do with new world primates.
This is true to the extent we can safely conclude the probability of life outside earth is close to nil: the maths says so
I disagree, I feel that the more chances that something has to happen the better the likelihood that it will. Thats my own personal logic however, and I would be interested to see the math that shows otherwise.
Edited by Vacate, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by IamJoseph, posted 07-06-2007 5:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by IamJoseph, posted 07-06-2007 10:05 AM Vacate has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 89 of 189 (409022)
07-06-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by IamJoseph
07-06-2007 10:05 AM


Re: Endogenous Retrovirus DNA
No sir! That has no impact, and I did factor it in.
If the location of the Retrovirus has no impact, why then did you decide to make differing locations for the analogy? Being in the same location is important, its impact is enough to say that it supports the theory of being more closely related to old world primates than even new world primates.
quote:
I would also say that a 'comma' downplays the complexity of a retrovirus. I much prefer the analogy of the error, because a retrovirus could also be said to be an error of sorts.
Irrelevent.
Once again, if the complexity is "irrelevent", why did you propose the change in your analogy?
quote:
It does however provide support of the preexisting theory. Particularly that we share more Endogenous Retrovirus DNA with old world primates than we do with new world primates.
Agreed. But that does not support the runaway conclusion
How so? It is concluded that we are more closely related to old world primates than new - and this observation regarding the retrovirus supports such a conclusion. Its really not much of a leap.
The vast variety of conditions and different atmospheric mixes seen in the universe also favour a negative conclusion
Exoplanet Orbit Database | Exoplanet Data Explorer
This website claims only 212 planets have been discovered. Perhaps the number is not completely accurate, but its safe to say that its not off by a few billion. From the reading I have done on the subject almost all of the planets discovered are very large gaseous planets.
This is not indicative of what all planets must be, its simply the limit of the technology of the time. Smaller, more Earthlike planets are now being discovered, as reported in the media just last year. (UsaToday)
This says that similar conditions are more possible than not,
Agreed
and the view that ours is a singularly unique mix is improbable;
Also agreed
and if it is, then again it results in the negative, because we are then saying that life cannot prevail outside earth and siting its reason!
I fail to understand your logic
The Q is: what does it mean if life is limited and unique to this planet? Any takers?
Right now, to the best of our knowledge, life is limited to Earth. What does it mean? Nothing. Our knowledge is limited by our technology . I have hopes someday we will find life outside our solar system, but the odds of picking the right spot to look is slim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by IamJoseph, posted 07-06-2007 10:05 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 149 of 189 (410076)
07-13-2007 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by IamJoseph
07-13-2007 4:55 AM


Re: Try this:
IamJoseph writes:
Evolution, namely the chronological emergence of different life form species, was inroduced in Genesis; this agreement of species is not pursuent to Darwin.
Irrelevant. When you feel that evolution was introduced is not the topic of discussion.
Genesis identifies this difference with speech
Are you aware that humans are not the only species that has unique traits? - and no this is not irrelevant. You have concluded that humans are a unique species/kind/thing/type/example/form simply because they have a feature that other species/kinds/things/types/examples/forms do not.
Darwin would fail the test of ticking the difference manifest in life forms: humans are not distinquised by similarity of spinal cords, knee joints and dna.
How exactly does "Darwin" fail in this regard? How does your definition of bird-kind in any way help me to differentiate a Robin from an Ostrich or a Hummingbird?
So far your method of organizing life forms is without any substantiation. Its meaningless to state that humans are different because of speech, that much is obvious. What is not obvious what criteria you use to determine fish-kind, insect-kind, bacteria-kind, mamal-kind-excluding human-kind.
Show me that you can pass the test of ticking the difference. All I have read so far is about "vindicated Genesis", and not one solitary reason for you to declare all evidence to the contrary "irrelevant".
and that all transmissions are seed generated - not even mentioned in Darwin's Theory
I am still waiting for you to explain why Darwin should use something that does not make sense. Unless of course you actually believe that evolutionary scientists do not know how various life forms have sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 4:55 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:38 AM Vacate has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 153 of 189 (410080)
07-13-2007 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Percy
07-13-2007 6:34 AM


Re: Can this thread be saved?
I am in the process of reading The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins, and tonight ran into something I found interesting that I believe does fit with the topic.
Richard Dawkins writes:
If you follow the population of herring gulls westward to North America, then on around the world across Siberia and back to Europe again, you notice a curious fact. The 'herring gulls', as you move round the pole, gradually become less and less like herring gulls and more and morelike lesser black-backed gulls. At every stage aound the ring, the birds are sufficiently similar to their immediate neighbors in the ring to interbreed with them. Until, that is, the ends of the continuum are reached, and the ring bites itself in the tail. The herring gull and the lesser black-backed gull in Europe never interbreed, although they are linked by a continuous series of interbreeding colleagues all the way round the other side of the world.
I found this quite interesting. He also discussed the salamanders of California. If I have some time I will try to provide a summary of what he has to say about the Ensatina.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 6:34 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:59 AM Vacate has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 156 of 189 (410088)
07-13-2007 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by IamJoseph
07-13-2007 6:38 AM


Re: Try this:
The originator of a precept is not irrelevent; its original depictions are more impacting than any other factor.
The originator does not show "evidence of evolution". Its original depictions have done little to define the differences seen in nature.
birds are distinquished from animals and fish by their special air-borne attribute.
You lost me on the Ostrich. Besides that - the Robin and the Hummingbird both have "air-borne attributes", and so I am still left wanting. What makes the two different enough that we should give them different names? Or are you suggesting all animals with "air-borne attributes" (and several without), from now on simply be called Bird?
Genesis does this - without infringing any legitimate, proven premise.
Interesting that you would post such a thing in a thread meant to supply evidence, and then shortly after post this:
The only 'pass' answer is that speech differentiates humans - no other factor applies.
Now we are back to the everything thats not a rock - kind. If this is your "legitimate, proven premise" I am really going to have a hard time taking you seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:38 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 158 of 189 (410092)
07-13-2007 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by IamJoseph
07-13-2007 6:59 AM


Re: Can this thread be saved?
Is this not an external environment impact,
Yes
there is no indication here of speciation outside the bird family?
No, neither Richard Dawkins nor I attempted to show speciation outside the bird family.
Humans also exhibit the same quality when different nationalisties are osmosized.
No they do not. Please provide an example of how humans make a complete ring such as the gulls.

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 Message 155 by IamJoseph, posted 07-13-2007 6:59 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 173 of 189 (410443)
07-15-2007 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by IamJoseph
07-15-2007 4:02 AM


Where's the human?
What if there is a legitimate qualification preposed, that the species classifications of Darwin does not cater to a pivotal factor in humans as a category of its own?
Humans do have a category of their own! Homo Sapien, does this satisfy you? Take note of the fact that in latin this means wise man, I am sure this will bring you satisfaction in that science even elevates humans (even if just in name).
I refer to the fact that humans are distinquished from all other life forms, primarily and exclusively, by speech
Not so. You are minimilizing our differences. Not only are we different because of speech, but also our DNA, Bones, Brain, organs, and even trivial things such as our appearance - all these set us apart from all other animals! I can tell you apart from a whale even when you don't speak.
ABE - In message 171 you attributed the quote to me when it was Dr.Adequate that should have been credited.
Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 4:02 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 7:47 AM Vacate has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 4630 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 175 of 189 (410472)
07-15-2007 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by IamJoseph
07-15-2007 7:47 AM


Re: Where's the human?
I disagree - absolutely; variations are not intrinsic or pivotal differences.
This is just absurd. Are you going to wait for the drop of blood to speak before calling it a murder scene?
But I won't take up this issue here.
Yes you will and you already have.
In Message 101:
IamJoseph writes:
Disregard the term, species, at least in the method of categorising life forms, and replace it with the broader margins of 'kind' as per genesis. This allows a far greater grouping of life forms, namely speech endowed humans are seen as one 'kind'
And again here in Message 105
Speech, more than skeletal or dna imprints is what differentiates modern humans.
Again in Message 110
that speech should be highlighted for humans - I'd prefer you acknowledged this, as opposed to inferring this is too naive - it is not.
Another here in Message 145
Genesis identifies this difference with speech - a fulcrum, unique factor
No suprise in Message 152
Its abscence in the equation makes it deficient in illustrating the difference and connectivity between species.
same post, but adding yet another issue:
Simple: none of the birds have speech; birds are distinquished from animals and fish by their special air-borne attribute.
A few more in that post, but I hardly see the need for quote boxes.
Message 154
Message 169
Message 171
You have done nothing but take up this issue here, and with this final post you still make the claim that the only important difference is speech! Congratulations on making such a unique observation, but could you please make a new thread that outlines how in the world this could be of any use to science?
If you are going to insist that speach is the only important feature I feel that I am justified in some clarity before you have the right to keep declaring "victory" over biologists. All you have right now is a fallback on "kinds" that shifts so broadly, and so often that any attempt at a solid understanding is impossible.
Your method of organizing life is meaningless. You keep claiming science is wrong because it is not organizing correctly - then be clear on your proposal for a correct method. I would be glad to question you on various life forms and how you decide what "kind" they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by IamJoseph, posted 07-15-2007 7:47 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
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