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Author
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Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 1 of 513 (885156)
03-25-2021 1:25 PM
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I have noticed that *we* are all over the map in regards to my ongoing assertions and discussions regarding my personal beliefs. In this proposed topic, I want to gather all of the various discussions which seem to hijack nearly every topic and bring them all here. (Yes Percy and Moose, it is my fault that so many other topics melted in to this ongoing discussion between myself and the peanut gallery.) For the record, the peanut gallery includes most other active posters on EvC Forum and anyone is free to join this discussion, but my main antagonists are Jar, AZ Paul3, Ringo, Tangle, PaulK, dwise1,and Stile. (Whom I respect more than the others as he is nicer.) Can we put this in The Great Debate Thread? And by the way, Percy...you and I never argue. Its ok to join the fray if you have any points which you feel that the others have not addressed. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : added dwise1 to peanut gallery list
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 21 by nwr, posted 03-26-2021 12:14 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 128 by drlove, posted 01-04-2022 11:41 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 5 of 513 (885163)
03-25-2021 8:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 8:37 PM
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Forcing My Hand Towards Science
First off, I'm a bit mad at Percy for placing this in the Science Forums as it insists that your evidence-based approach win by default. There are some things, however, for which no objective evidence is possible. My plan is to bring all of our scattered arguments here and I would have attempted to explain my argument more fully but evidently since we are stuck in a Science Forum, my assertions, experiences, beliefs and interpretations will get shot down without an argument.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 6 of 513 (885164)
03-25-2021 8:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 8:37 PM
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G#MF@&!!!
AZPaul3 writes: The difference in efficacy has been established and recognized for quite some time, now. I'm afraid it's well past time to think anyone here could effectively challenge the conclusion already reached that science is the superior ontology. Bullshit. Fuck off. You all should be glad that I even bother arguing with you. This place would be deader than a door nail if we never debated. And forgive my carnal nature in cussing you out, but it is far from conclusive that belief is dead. Either that or 50% of the population is delusional. And you lefties have no basis for insisting that it is not you as well.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 9:43 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 8 of 513 (885166)
03-25-2021 9:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by jar
03-25-2021 8:59 PM
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Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
As long as you show me politely where I am inferring rather than reporting, I will go along with this topic in a Science forum. When you start calling me stupid and bash the CCoI as pitiful and disgusting, you are going to get ignored by me and we wont have a discussion. I plan on fully explaining my thought process even though it may fall short of scientific critically thinking standards. As you know, I have long objected to several of your ideas. Among them:
That every belief needs to pass the evidence test before it is taken seriously.
That all beliefs should be taken at equal value. We know darn well that Loki or Coyote are not even in the same league with Jesus Christ and if we don't, I give up trying to convince you and will simply pray for you in the future. Now I will consider this argument if you argue it using scripture, but if you simply say that its a CCoI fantasy due to lack of evidence I will walk away. I have much more productive uses of my time than to get embarrassed in front of an impressionable group of lurkers who are already poisoned by your explanations regarding Theology and Belief. Edited by Phat, : added ranting
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 8:59 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 9:10 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 10:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 13 of 513 (885172)
03-25-2021 10:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by jar
03-25-2021 9:10 PM
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Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
jar writes: Look at your accounts of your experience Phat. What parts are actual reporting and what parts are pure inference? I turned to an old friend, in order to better understand reports and inferences.
Language In Thought & Action writes: Most of our knowledge, acquired from parents, friends, schools, newspapers, books, conversation, speeches, and radio, is received verbally . All our knowledge of history, for example, comes to us only in words. The only proof we have that the Battle of Waterloo ever took place is that we have had reports to that effect. These reports are not given us bv people who saw it happen, but are based on other reports: reports of reports of reports, which go back ulti- mately to the first-hand reports given by people who did see it hap- pening. It is through reports, then, and through reports of reports, that we receive most knowledge: about government, about what is happening in China, about what picture is showing at the down- town theater — in fact, about anything which we do not know through direct experience. Critics could thus argue that the only knowledge that humans could ever have about Jesus Christ stem from first hand reports passed down through the centuries. Tangle likes to remind me that the only place the character could exist would be in reports and legends.
Let us call this world that comes to us through words the verbal
world, as opposed to the world we know or are capable of knowing
through our own experience, which we shall call the extensional
world . I will say that though much of my initial understanding of Christianity was entirely through reports, (books I had read, people I had listened to) my passion began when I was Born Again. LIT&A writes: The human being, like any other creature, begins to make his acquaintance with the extensional world from infancy. Unlike other creatures, however, he begins to receive, as soon as he can learn to understand, reports, reports of reports, reports of reports of reports. In addition he receives inferences made from reports, inferences made from other inferences, and so on. Thus Hayakawa describes the charge made by Tangle and others that Christianity is entirely cultural and is based on reports and inferences. I argue that my passion began through extensional experience.
Reports are verifiable. We may not always be able to verify them
ourselves, since we cannot track down the evidence for every piece
of history we know...But if we
are roughly agreed on the names of things, on what constitutes a
“foot,” “yard,” “bushel,” and so on, and on how to measure time,
there is relatively little danger of our misunderstanding each other.
Even in a world such as we have today, in which everybody seems
to be quarreling with everybody else, we still to a surprising degree
trust each other's reports . We ask directions of total strangers when
we are traveling. We follow directions on road signs without being
suspicious of the people who put them up. We read books of infor-
mation about science, mathematics, automotive engineering, travel,
geography, the history of costume, and other such factual matters,
and we usually assume that the author is doing his best to tell us as
truly as he can what he knows.(...)We still have an enormous amount of re-
liable information available and that deliberate misinformation, ex-
cept in warfare, still is more the exception than the rule. The desire
for self-preservation that compelled men to evolve means for the
exchange of information also compels them to regard the giving
of false information as profoundly reprehensible. . Now to be fair, many of you regard scripture as an entirely human created story. Thus I can give you information which lines up with scripture and you are still more likely to turn to science to verify the information or to place it in the context of critical thought. Granted, hayakawa states: ...At its highest development, the language of reports is the language of science. By “highest development” we mean greatest general usefulness. But how, it may be asked, can there be agreement about even this much among people who are at each other’s throats about practically everything else:
political philosophies, ethical ideas, religious beliefs, and the survival of my
business versus the survival of yours? The answer is that circumstances compel men to agree, whether they wish to or not. If, for
example, there were a dozen different religious sects in the United
States, each insisting on its own way of naming the time of the day
and the days of the year, the mere necessity of having a dozen dif-
ferent calendars, a dozen different kinds of watches, and a dozen
sets of schedules for business hours, trains, and radio programs, to
say nothing of the effort that would be required for translating terms
from one nomenclature to another, would make life as we know it
impossible. Which is a good argument to stick with Christianity and quit trying to introduce every god created!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by jar, posted 03-25-2021 9:10 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 14 of 513 (885173)
03-25-2021 11:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 9:43 PM
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Re: G#MF@&!!!
Your kind doesn't fair very well. Since when did "my kind" advocate killing anything other than demons?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 9:43 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 12:52 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 17 of 513 (885177)
03-26-2021 2:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by anglagard
03-26-2021 1:17 AM
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Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
LIT&A writes: All our knowledge of history, for example, comes to us only in words. So where did you get all your information on Waterloo? Through books. Through words. So how is Hayakawa wrong? It puzzled me why an old liberal Librarian would chafe at a minor error that my "old friend", SI Hayakawa wrote in his book, Language In Thought & Action. Either you were a bit tired when snapping off such a comment or there was a sort of spiritual conflict behind your criticism. Then I saw it...in Hayakawas biography:
political affiliation:
Republican Party Old hippie AZPaul3 also agreed with you. The Biography provided a clue to one of old Hayakawas flaws. 
quote:
In 1968, after a period of student rioting at San Francisco State College, Hayakawa was appointed acting president and immediately took a firm stand against what he regarded as the excesses of student protesters. He acquired a national reputation as a foe of student leftism and a symbol of the conservative in action.
Old Hippies never die. They simply continue dreaming of one day overthrowing the "establishment". Edited by Phat, : added sentence
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by anglagard, posted 03-26-2021 1:17 AM | | anglagard has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 3:24 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 18 of 513 (885178)
03-26-2021 3:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
03-26-2021 12:52 AM
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Re: G#MF@&!!!
Lets say we go with your belief that there is no God. Living things die in this universe. Entire planets get wiped out on a regular basis. Some of them likely have life...perhaps even advanced life such as ourselves. So I guess its easy to give "Fate" a free pass. So now lets imagine that the God of Genesis 7 does exist. Since when is little science monkey AZ justified at being angry with the Creator? Could it be that you simply chafe at His wanton authority and power, preferring the much more likely scenario that humans will rule each other through our own minds? You DO realize that in this century we are much more likely to wipe out every living thing than God is.(Should He exist) But of course without evidence how could we even imagine a God? Oh wait...that's right...the hippies and liberals are enamored over Spinozas polite god. I almost forgot!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 12:52 AM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 3:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 22 of 513 (885294)
04-03-2021 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
03-25-2021 8:37 PM
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Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
AZPaul3 writes: Belief vs the scientific method? As in compare and contrast for efficacy? Isn't that like comparing a Dick and Jane reader with the Feynman lectures? No. rather more like comparing the belief in science with the belief in God. I'll explain more fully as I develop my argument/assertion.
AZ writes: The difference in efficacy has been established and recognized for quite some time, now. I'm afraid it's well past time to think anyone here could effectively challenge the conclusion already reached that science is the superior ontology. We are trying to nail down your assertions that "science rules" and that we could even define anything superior to an actual living objective. Your objective appears to be to "use" (utilize) science on a daily basis and as a lifestyle to determine reality and the best course of action. My objective ts to know Christ(as living and active) and to know His will for my life and routine. jar would ask me how I would know. ringo would charge me with ignoring what He says to do in scripture. I challenge and deny ringos assertion unless it is taken word for word literal and I am failing simply because I refuse to give everything up. I dismiss ringos accusations due to the fact that he doesnt even believe in a character alive apart from the inked words and symbols within the book itself. He would argue that it doesnt matter whether the character of jesus is alive apart from the written word or not. He would say that i wont listen and do what Jesus says to do. I would argue that none are righteous and that no one does what Jesus said collectively to do.
So, what is the purpose of this thread? Keep arguing. Its what we do here. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 03-25-2021 8:37 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 04-03-2021 5:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-03-2021 6:00 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 23 of 513 (885295)
04-03-2021 3:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by AZPaul3
03-26-2021 3:57 AM
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Re: G#MF@&!!!
AZ writes: This universe would just as soon kill us as stare at us for 4 billion years. Fate walks her own path and ignores god just like she ignores everyone and everything else. Sounds like you are "worshiping" or acknowledging the creation (physical matter) more than you are the Creator(real or imagined) AZ writes: And not angry with but more of an ignoring of thing. Oedipus Complex writ large?  Could it be that you simply chafe at His wanton authority and power ...
AZ writes: Naw, He doesn't have any so that's not an issue. At least not in your mind. You wanna be the Boss there!
What's so enamoring about Spinoza's god is that he wasn't real. He didn't exist. In his place Brother Baruch put the majesty of the secular universe. The majesty of the secular universe! The majesty of Creation over a Creator. Do I see a pattern here?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2021 3:57 AM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 04-03-2021 5:34 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 27 of 513 (885307)
04-04-2021 12:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
04-03-2021 6:00 PM
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Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
ringo writes: I don't have to believe Frodo existed to know what he said. Why don't you address that point instead of just repeating the same old foolish accusation? OK. Using your analogy... If I claim that I have a "personal relationship" with Frodo, you may well respond that Frodo is simply a character in a book. That would be expected. But what you are essentially doing is acknowledging that I believe that Frodo exists and then attempting to hold me to the Frodo in the book...which you claim is the only Frodo who exists. And If I then claim that Frodo transcends the book and that a bit of Frodo exists in ALL of us, you will declare it all to be fantasy and then go back to Tolkien's "Bible" and insist that Frodo (of the book) clearly says to do A, B, and C and that I simply make up my Frodo and don't do the A,B, and C that Tolkien wrote HIS Frodo to do. Why accuse me? I channel my inner Frodo. All that you attempt to claim is that the dusty old book says what it says, period. Never mind that most Christians would not agree with you. And never mind that there are more Frodos out there than simply the one in the Lord of the Rings. (or the Hobbit)
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by ringo, posted 04-03-2021 6:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Coragyps, posted 04-04-2021 12:39 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 29 by nwr, posted 04-04-2021 12:53 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2021 1:33 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 31 of 513 (885311)
04-04-2021 3:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
04-04-2021 1:33 PM
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Frodo Lives
Phat writes: And never mind that there are more Frodos out there than simply the one in the Lord of the Rings. (or the Hobbit)
ringo writes: There really aren't. This shows me that you really *should* be a believer. I think you reject it due to your pride on your own methodology that replaced your belief. This gets us back to Jesus. Jesus is not simply a character in a book. If He were limited to that, I would have no overwhelming compulsion to commune with Him (since He wouldn't thus exist)
ringo writes: It's about YOU rejecting my argument BECAUSE I don't believe. The whole point of bringing up Frodo is to try to get you to understand that my lack of belief in the character has nothing to do with my understanding of the character. Thats the whole point. You can understand fiction until the Moon becomes green cheese and the cow jumping over it takes a bite each pass. You cant tell me what my interpretation of the character must be by forcing me into your argumentative points. Jesus and I do have a relationship. It is not fantasy. Showing you, however...and getting you to listen will require me to agree with your argumentative talking points and throwing away the apologists since I refuse to "throw away" Jesus (which is, by the way the silliest argument jar has ever brought forth.) It would be like throwing away Lincoln and believing in revisionist history! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by ringo, posted 04-04-2021 1:33 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by dwise1, posted 04-04-2021 3:52 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 33 by jar, posted 04-04-2021 4:12 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-05-2021 11:22 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 37 of 513 (885322)
04-05-2021 2:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by jar
04-04-2021 4:12 PM
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Re: Frodo Lives
jar writes: How many years have you been asked to explain how you know you are 'communing' with Jesus? Its not really important to know. Likely it would be close to impossible to affirm anything beyond ones personal belief and convictions. Whether Jesus is alive in Spirit now, as many claim, there is no way to measure this objectivly.
jar writes: How many years have you either refused or been unable to explain how you do that or even what that means? We have been discussing this stuff here at EvC since roughly 2004. 27 years, jar. I have used just about every argument I can come up with and you have ridiculed or dismissed most of them. Evidently you don't think that a relationship with GOD is possible or perhaps even necessary. Just because it cannot be explained does not mean it needs to be dismissed.
You keep using the word commune. I don't think it means what you think it means. What do you think it means? What is Holy Communion to you, beyond a symbolic gesture among humans? What does the Bible say? What have the apologists added, in your opinion?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by jar, posted 04-04-2021 4:12 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:01 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 50 by Percy, posted 04-05-2021 6:04 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 38 of 513 (885326)
04-05-2021 2:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-05-2021 11:22 AM
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Re: Frodo Lives
ringo,explaining a generic way of "testing" for Jesus writes: It isn't "my" methodology. It's THE methodology, the same methodology that YOU use for almost everything. Keyword: ALMOST. Not only is GOD more than a character in a book, He is human through Jesus and thus able to relate to us, should He so desire. God is not on the same level as leprechauns, Bigfoot, weird Hindu deities bedecked with jewels, or old Indian legends. If so, it is He who initiated the beginning of the curiosity among pagan cultures to know the truth. And to be fair, Jesus is not some white guy either. I believe in a multicultural Jesus. He likely would agree with my assessment. As for "The" Methodology, I disagree with that claim. Science is not to be elevated above belief unless it objectively and conclusively refutes a prior assumption. With so little evidence (objective,physical) to work with, Jesus likely will eternally remain in the belief realm. If He is in fact a Deity, communion with humans should be no problem for Him. And, no. He does not owe it to everybody to present Himself. He gives them the roadmap and they must do the work to find Him. Which you evidently saw no need of doing after discovering the scientific method. Finally, you will get back to your primary accusation: That I don't do what the character in that dusty old book says to do. (Thats a pretty brash statement coming from a guy who doesn't observe me or my habits on a daily basis. ) I will not fight it, though. I can always do more. But its insane to imagine that everybody on this planet could, would, and should give up everything they own...for each other. Your defense is that there are select groups of Christians throughout History who have done just that. (Remember truth lover here at EvC?) Bully for them. If they make it and the rest of us don't, I will then agree with your charges. And why don't you do it? If you go first, I might consider following. You will argue that you are not a believer and thus don't have to do it. Again...;bully for you. The fact that I don't do it and claim to be a believer is between myself and Him. He may well have me whacked. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by ringo, posted 04-05-2021 11:22 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by ringo, posted 04-05-2021 3:18 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 40 of 513 (885328)
04-05-2021 3:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by jar
04-05-2021 3:01 PM
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Random Acts Of Kindness.
Phat writes: Whether Jesus is alive in Spirit now, as many claim, there is no way to measure this objectivly. jar writes: But there is far more to it than that. Neither you or anyone else has ever even explained what that means. You have. You often mention that it is the little everyday things we do for others that show our Spirit. One of my favorite scriptures is this:
Matthew 10:40 ESV writes: “Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. Your actions of taking out the neighbors trash likely led them to receive you (accept you) as a trustworthy neighbor. According to Matthew, they then also receive the One who sent you. Unless you are telling me that nobody sent you, in which case I would roll my eyes and smack my forehead. Also:
Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to Me; whoever rejects you rejects Me; and whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "Whoever believes in Me does not believe in Me alone, but in the One who sent Me.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:01 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:40 PM | | Phat has replied |
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