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Author Topic:   The Barrier
Posts: 5892
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.4

Message 10 of 67 (848564)
02-10-2019 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-09-2019 6:07 AM

Already 'knowing' the answer is The Barrier to knowledge.
In general, yes, thinking that you are right keeps you from questioning and examining your position to test whether it could be wrong. Refusing to examine and test your own position precludes correcting it and thus learning anything.
But when regarding creationists and other fundamentalists, that refusal takes on an additional dimension. As I was trying to express in my Message 10 attempt to answer Phat's inability to understand "biblical creationism", they start out with a theology that makes some very specific and particular demands which are not met by the real world and then proceed to twist reality to fit those demands of their theology. That is basically what G.R. Bozhart expressed in your quoting of him.
In Unitarian-Universalism, we have an old catch-phrase, "To question is the answer." I rather suspect that it's a left-over from the 60's when we were to question authority, but it makes a lot of sense to me theologically. We "understand" and believe many things, but being fallible humans ever prone to error, we will inevitably get those things wrong. Therefore, we must continually question our own beliefs in order to find where we had gotten them wrong, since until we do that we can never any chance of correcting those errors. Furthermore, I was taught that the true purpose of religion is not to provide us with the answers (which will invariably be wrong anyway), but rather to get us to ask the right questions.
We're all the same of course, we all have our ideas that we think are correct and that's why the scientific method was invented - to sort the snake oil from the asprin. We're all ok with the rational, critical thinking approach when it's something we personally don't have any emotional investment in, but as soon as it crosses into that territory all our defensive mechanisms spring into action.
The scientific method has proven to be the best approach to learning how the universe works -- like Slartibartfast, I have always been a big fan of science. But there are many questions, such as moral and ethical questions, to which the scientific method does not apply very well, if at all. I would also have to wonder whether most religious approaches would work any better, especially the dogmatic ones. That is a sticky wicket (if you will pardon a Yank saying that, especially since cricket is the one episode of "explained" on Netflix that I never could watch all the way through), but I feel that non-dogmatic ways can be found, though still more in the religion realm than the science.
I had absolutely nothing to do yesterday and the weather was vile so I went to Evolution Fairytales and watched Mike the Wiz with increasing fascination.
Ah! Seeking something even more vile than the weather in order to make the weather look decent in comparison. Kind of like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop. (sorry, USA Netflix has uploaded a lot of Monty Python content these past couple months)
When creationists complain bitterly of being discriminated against on this forum, all I can do is to roll my eyes that they don't know how fairly -- no, better than fairly -- they are being treated. I had spent a couple/few years on a Yahoo Groups forum which was moderated by a team, half creationists and half normals. That worked rather well, but then the moderators started dropping off until we were left with just one moderator, a creationist. Immediately he established his draconian reign. A creationist could post whatever drivel he wanted, but the moment you questioned him in any manner, you'd be suspended. Protest to the moderator about your suspension and you'd be suspended again.
I have tried a couple other forums with similar results. In one, I was suspended without any notice and the admin had set it up so that every time I tried to even connect to the forum I'd be notified that it no longer existed.
But one thing I learned from a creationist on that Yahoo Groups forum (before it went south) was that the primary purpose of creationism is to convince. Creationists do not care about the truth. All they care about is being able to convince you -- and mostly themselves -- of their teachings and claims.
Think about it. If you are concerned about the truth of your claims, when a claim turns out to be false then you drop it, right? But if you are only concerned about being convincing, when a claim turns out to be false but it still sounds convincing, then you keep it, right? That is why so many utterly false creationist claims continue to circulate. That is why we even have the acronym, PRATT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2019 6:07 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2019 4:16 AM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2019 6:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

Posts: 5892
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.4

Message 27 of 67 (848659)
02-12-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 11:34 AM

Also "mental derangement" inferred from believing the earth is young, obviously doesn't follow and is yet another personal attack to add to your long list of them.
I started studying "creation science" in 1981. I very quickly learned that none of the many claims made by creationists were true. In all the decades since then, I have yet to encounter a single creationist claim that is not false.
Do you have a young-earth claim that is valid and true? Please present it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:34 AM mike the wiz has not replied

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