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Author Topic:   Iconic Peppered Moth - gene mutation found
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 76 (785449)
06-05-2016 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
06-04-2016 6:15 AM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
If you'd been following my posts you would know that this is exactly what I said would be the situation if the black moth alleles were built in. While the whites were selected the blacks would show up from time to time in heterozygous form and be picked off by predators. It was only when the whites started getting picked off instead (selected against) that the blacks could start to multiply.
But if this is a dominant allele the black moths wouldn't show up 'from time to time'. They would, of necessity, need to be present in every single generation. And they would be selected against - a dominant allele which is selected against will vanish from a population much more quickly than a recessive one, since any individual carrying the allele is subject to whatever causes the negative selection pressure (in this case being easier to eat).
But you even have black moth mutations "happening all along" as if it's that common an event that the same locus has the same mutation over and over again? Is mutation ever described in such terms?
You don't need the exact same mutation. I imagine something like being black can be acheived in a huge diversity of ways. For a similar example in humans, we can see that Europeans and east Asians have light skin due to different mutations. In both cases people moved to higher latitudes where lighter skin would be beneficial, and in both cases a mutation arose which caused lighter skin, but it was not the same in each case. The specific mutation selected for was the one which happened to come along at the right time. The same is true of lactase persistence in humans, northern Europeans and east Africans both evolved lactase persistence independently and the genetic basis is different in each case.

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 Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-04-2016 6:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 50 of 76 (785465)
06-05-2016 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-05-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Well the study pinned it down to a specific change in a specific gene at a specific time -- the year 1819 -- and a gene not normally associated with color.
Yes, but it didn't have to be that mutation. If another mutation causing dark pigmentation had arisen in northern England, we'd be talking about that one instead.
Then how is this "mutation" if it "comes along at the right time?" Is mutation a random accident of replication or is it an inevitable requirement of genetics? Which is it????
The point is that there are many different random accidents that can have the same effect. They don't come along only at just the right time. Some of them crop up at the wrong time, but then since it is the wrong time they are selected out of the population.
If you weren't all expecting to find mutations to explain everything, I wonder if you would find them.
If Adam and Eve were diploid, like all mammals, then they had no more than four alleles at any locus - two for Adam, two for Eve. And yet we know that there are hundreds of different alleles for some loci in modern humans. Mutation is a requirement of Biblical literalism.

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 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 1:56 PM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 53 of 76 (785471)
06-05-2016 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-05-2016 1:56 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Actually, since Eve was cloned, Eve's alleles were Adam's.
She can't have been an exact clone, on account of being female. We need to allow some God-magic in the crafting of Eve's genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 1:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 5:42 PM caffeine has not replied
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2016 9:49 AM caffeine has not replied

  
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