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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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So, my question is as in the topic title: Where should there be "The right to refuse service?" When it endangers or harms others. The bartender refusing to serve someone who has had too much is a common example ... The gunshop owner refusing to serve a mental patient is also a logical application ... Where should there NOT be "The right to refuse service?" When it does more harm than good and does not endanger others. Thus discrimination doesn't qualify ... whether racist, homophobic, misogynistic, agist, etc. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... Here's another logical answer to the question: have a law declaring that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what many states have tried to do. But it's been called unconstitutional. ... Can you define equality in a way that does not apply to homosexuals? I get the following:
I'm not interested in discriminating against homosexuals as I've said a million times already. ... But you are drawing a line between homosexuals and heterosexuals, and that is de facto discrimination. Any time you do "them" vs "us" you are discriminating. Equality is about treating everybody the same ("correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. ...").
However, the answer to your question is that, given the current climate of legal opinion, there is no way to provide a legal basis for Christians to refuse to honor gay weddings. And that brings us back to the situation I keep describing. Christians will refuse to serve gay weddings because it is a violation of God's law, and the fascist state that denies us our religious rights will have to punish us. It is a state where the social norms are decided by the people not by one religion, where secular values are honored in government free of dominance by one religion. If that means denying you the "right" to be a bigoted biased discriminating fundamentalist using religion as a crutch, then boo hoo. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The same line I would draw between pedophiles and nonpedophiles. Homosexuality is ... Between consenting caring adults, while pedophiles harm children, so no it is NOT the same line. A closer parallel is a heterosexual couple living together without being married -- I'm sure you also classify that as a "sin" in your holy world, and yet we have laws recognizing that a common law couple have the same rights as married couples. There are lots of adults living in caring consenting relationships with other adults, And you didn't define "equality" so that you can exclude gays ... wonder why? And I would much rather live in a world defined by equality than one defined by petty biases and bigotry based on fantasy. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
People, states, governments, yes, even courts, often will not do what they ought to do, what they should do, until you hit them in the head with a clear, unambiguous, undeniable 2x4. Idealism aside, this is the only way the system, all of it, has ever been known to work. What I find potentially amusing is that an unintended consequence of these religious-free-to-be-a-bigot laws is that they may result in expanded civil rights to include implicitly the rights of the LGBT community. http://www.10news.com/...ve-changes-to-religious-freedom-law
quote: Indiana, Arkansas Amend 'Religious Freedom' Laws : The Two-Way : NPR
quote: Popcorn anyone? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Not exactly. It is not a matter of bound to help but rather the fact that the business is printing or cake making or space rental and the business is not censorship. And yes, the boundaries are fuzzy and mutable and will depend on the total conditions of the particular incident when it comes to where the legal/illegal line lies. The function of a print shop or bakery or meeting hall rental is not to make the judgements beyond what is reasonable based on the available knowledge at the time. There is nothing that prevents you from adding a disclaimer to the cake\banner\rental agreement\etc So the baker can add writing on the cake that the views expressed on the cake are not the views of the baker. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... thats why successful countries have separation of religion and state. So laws are written on what society needs not what religion dictates. And one of the things society needs is a free market, excluding 10% of the population from that market is not a free market. agreed, and I don't think anyone would like it if this were applied to other scenarios, such as the selling food to the glutton or ... guns ... because selling a product is not participating in what that product is used for:
If we wanted to take it to the most reductionist ridiculous level we would ask: does the person who sells shoes to a murderer participate in murder? So when you glean out all these other applications of the purported reasons for the law what are you left with? Prejudice. Pure and simple prejudice. Now you might argue that it is not the product so much as it is knowledge of what it is going to be used for: the shoes aren't (normally) being used as a murder weapon (although they can be thrown at presidents), and guns can be used for other purposes. The seller doesn't necessarily know it is going to be used for murder ... unless the purchaser tells him. If the purchaser tells the gun seller that he is going to "murder his boss" then the seller has a clear cause to refuse to sell the gun -- and he has cause to notify the police. But if the purchaser tells the shoe seller that he is going to "murder his boss" then the seller does not have a clear cause to refuse to sell the shoes -- but still has cause to notify the police. Likewise if the purchaser of a cake tells the cake seller that he is going to "murder his boss" then the seller does not have a clear cause to refuse to sell the cake -- but still has cause to notify the police. You can replace "murder his boss" with "rob a store" or "kill his neighbors cat" with the same results. In these cases the seller has knowledge that the gun purchaser is going to use the gun to commit a crime, and thus he has a public safety cause and a cause not to aid and abet a crime for refusal of service. Public safety is not involved with selling shoes or cakes; aiding and abetting a crime is not involved with selling shoes or cakes. Now posit that the announced purpose is "to celebrate a gay wedding" in a state where gay marriage is legal: Does the gun seller refuse to sell the gun (to be used to shoot blanks in the air at the reception after the wedding is completed)? Does the shoe salesman refuse to sell the shoes (to dance at the reception after the wedding is completed)? Does the cake salesman refuse to sell the cake (to be cut at the reception after the wedding is completed)? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman. We will not celebrate the travesty of a homosexual "marriage." Amusingly, making such a fuss over a simple ceremony actually raises it's prominence in the media and society in general, such that a lot more people that favor gay marriage will celebrate it. And be willing to see laws passed that make it legal for gay marriage, which will now be reviewed by the Supreme Court to see if it becomes the law of the land. Keep up the good work. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't participate in a murder by legitimately selling someone a gun which I regard as useful for self-protection. I would be guilty of participating in a murder, however, if I knew the gun was to be used for murder. So you agree that you should refuse service if you know the gun is going to be used for an illegal purpose: murder; but that it is legitimate to sell the gun if you know (or are allowed to assume), that it is going to be used for a legal purpose. Now how about shoes: if the buyer says they are going to kill their boss and wants new shoes to dance on his body, are you proscribed from selling him the shoes? Whether or not you notify the police of his intent is a different matter -- do you or do you not sell the shoes? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't like Al because he hates lgbts's
I don't like Bob because he hates blacks I don't like Charlie because he hates latinos I don't like Don because he hates Muslims I don't like bigots, Sam-I-am by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The Christian business owners who are being driven out of business don't hate anybody. They are not being driven out of business, Faith, they are choosing to go out of business rather than serve a certain group of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with ... because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve a certain group of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve those people that they don't hate ... and just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve thatgroup of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve a certain group of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve a certain group of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve a certain group of people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to serve them people that they don't hate ... but just won't do business with because they don't hate them ... but just choose not to do business with them ... not because they hate them ... but because they choose not to ... No, it's not hate not at all, it's that Christian overflowing love ... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Typical propaganda-type lie, RAZD. Lies really do help to get the uninformed in a rage against people the establishment hates. Nazi Germany did it particularly well, and this picture is right down that alley. Godwin's Law for the win ... Curiously that picture comes from a Christian organisation:
quote: Silly me - I thought one christian's viewpoint was as valid as another's ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Alabama minister convicted of disorderly conduct in same-sex marriage case
quote: A Christian minister jailed by state for practicing religious freedom -- there's an example for you Faith ... Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I'm far more interested in obeying God and honoring His law, far more interested inwhat's good for my soul and my eternal life than what's good for my business or even my general wellbeing in this life, and all true Christians feel this way. In other words not fit to be elected to any government position where you pledge to uphold the constitution and the laws of the land ... This is where fanatics go, Faith. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Upside-down flag T-shirt creates PacSun backlash
Now personally I think wearing a countries flag as part of your apparel -- especially when you get to underwear and shorts -- or when you make objects to sit on -- chairs, etc -- is more disrespectful to that flag than wearing it upside down. In college one classmate used a flag as a bedspread, and several in the dorm thought that was disrespectful, and this was long before jingoists started wearing it. Second I support the rights of anyone to wear this t-shirt as their free speech, especially if other wear per above is permitted without dispute. Third I note that an international sign of distress at sea is to raise a flag upside down. But the issue here is :: should people be allowed to prevent a store from offering a product made by someone else? Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : urlby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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