Human Spirit

So basically just something that we make up to make us feel good.The idea of a human spirit is a coping mechanism that we use to deal with our mortal nature. It is a way of bypassing the reality of death and non existence. It is a construct of the mind that we use to beat the unbeatable test. It is what we aspire to be.It is born of that human quality that is the will to survive even in the face of inescapable mortality.

Probably the same thing that makes you think that someone or something imagined us.

Hey you wont find me knocking self stimulation although it is always better if you can convince other entities to join in. Exponentially so if the other entities are actually real.If your point is that there can be benefits to a belief structure even if the substance of the belief is unfounded I would agree but there is a cost as well. If your goal is to truly understand the nature of the universe and existence then it does you no good to be entertaining flights of fancy. Welcome to the human condition. Not usually for the people who believe it. Those who are convinced that there is such a thing as a spirit or a spiritual plane believe it to be a part of reality.In the end, I think, we should not choose what we wish to believe is true. Even in the face of such a compelling idea.

I guess that no matter what I do I will be missing out on a lot of life. It is like a giant smorgasbord and you can not possibly taste all of it. Gorging on the pastries wont take you as far as the chicken, pasta, potatoes and salad. Yeah I dont know. I have seen a few people take their faith right to the end of their life and it seemed to serve them well. You made the point that faith was not a substitute for reality. I am saying that it really only offers benefits when it is a substitute for reality. Once you realize that that is what it is then those benefits are no longer available to you. Placebo effects disappear when you know that it is a sugar pill and if they don't then they were not placebo effects.But an effect is an effect and this is the interesting part for me. If believing in a thing can produce real effects then what does that say about the power of belief? You either approach the world scientifically or you do not. It even says so right in the bible,"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:" Proverbs 23:7

I think what you are talking about is optimism rather than faith. Optimism implies the awareness of possible failure where faith does not. The allowance for doubt is a critical difference. So when faith is not a substitute for reality it is not faith but merely optimism. It is an interesting comparison though as one seems rational while the other does not and yet they both return similar results.I notice that we have switched from talking about spirit to talking about faith. Is spirit the essence of a thing or is spirit a separate entity? It seems to me that when people talk about the spirit they are implying that our corporal selves are some sort of off shoot from our spirit which is the principal entity. This is different from the idea of esprit de corps which is dependant on the corps for it's existence. Sure but when I am drunk I know that I am drunk. That is what I meant by the Proverbs quote. Sometimes I will imagine that some string of events is a good sign that I should buy a lottery ticket but in the end I realize that it is all a load of malarkey. At the seat of my reason or 'in my heart' I know that a coincidence of numbers is not really a sign that I should buy a lottery ticket.So you either believe it or you don't, human inconsistencies not withstanding.

I think if we can define the idea and identify where it comes from that we can shed some light on how it influences our behaviour.Some people are kind and some are not. If we are all possessed with the same human spirit then human spirit is not the quality that determines if we are kind or not. Perhaps it is just a matter of which stuff we keep in our junk drawers. Some people walk through the park with the weight of the world on their back and others can slog through the mud light as a butterfly.

Well I have been thinking about this subject off and on for a bit. I am not sure that I have much to show for it. Well OK but what measure of control do we have? I think that so much of our nature depends on the luck of the draw. Both genetically and environmentally.I had a brother who suffered terribly from depression. No doubt his experiences were different than mine but we both grew up in the same house. What was it that made everything grey for him and not for me? It was nothing that I did. Of if it was something that I did then I did it for reasons that I do not control. We are who we are.I do believe that we can train out brains to behave differently over time but that impetus and that ability has to come from who we are originally. This is why I think that humility is the only proper course. Even if you are a genius it is probably not your fault.I also had some thought about the idea of a human spirit or spirit in general being dualistic in nature. In that it requires a distinction between ourselves and our parts. How can we possibly be anything more than the sum of our parts? I think that it is more likely a case of not knowing what all of our parts are.

I think that from these facts we get the idea of spirit or maybe even the awareness of spirit. On the one hand we are clearly the result of the hardware (our brains) and at the same time we are somehow apart from it. Or at least it feels that way to me and I think to pretty much everybody. There is a separation between ourselves and our bodies. Almost like our 'selves' are a projection of the body but in our case the image has some control over the projector. A bit of an aside I guess but it was just to reiterate the idea that we are not really in control even though it feels like we are. We are who we are because of our circumstances. Our genetics and our environment.If the difference between a brilliant scientist and a plumber all comes down to the hand that they were dealt then what room is there for pride? I mean not everyone can be a plumber no matter how hard they try. Just because we would all be in deep shit without the plumbers that's no reason for them to be uppity about it. It is a hopeless loop because the things that we want to do are a result of who we are to begin with. I hereby coin the term 'a fractal trap'. Yet the fact that we can step back and look at who we are and make adjustments is evidence to the contrary. I think that this sensation of a separation between mind and body is the source of religion and probably a side effect of self awareness?Am I even on topic?

I suppose that I agree with that except that a human spirit is a fair bit more nebulous than your left arm. I agree that the more we work on it the more that it comes into focus. Realizing or deciding that we can have some control is a major step in actually achieving some measure of control. Not to veer off too much into a discussion of free will but I think that it is germane to the topic. The subjective personal evidence says that it feels like we have some control. A close examination indicates that we are a product of our parts and circumstance and really cannot be anything different than what we are. Even though this is deterministic it still requires what feels like choices on our part. It is like driving down a road that you have never travelled. The road is already there but it is all new to you. I have to ignore this information in order to consider myself as an autonomous being.Be that as it may, we find ourselves here today. It feels like we have choices so which ones are we going to make and why? It seems as though it is possible to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. That you can imagine your reality and then make it so. To some extent at least.Iff we can know all of the parts involved can we know to what extent. Perhaps that the important thing is just relative improvement and not our place on any absolute scale.

No I don't think so. The Strat in the hands of a master makes a different sound than it does in the hands of a freezing man looking to start a fire. I guess that the important thing is being able to recognize the potential.To go back to your shirt example. The shirt had that effect on you because it wasn't just any shirt. It served as a trigger when mixed with the other parts that were in your memory. It wouldn't have that effect on anybody else. So the parts of the equation are unique when that shirt was in your hands on that day.

Are you a communist as well as a fascist? I think that all of the other humans are just more parts to the equation. The same as any other thing that might impact our awareness. So I wouldn't say that our spirit is collective. Everything that goes into our experience makes us who we are. The other people are just parts of that experience.

Sorry, must have dozed off there. I certainly share that thought and impulse but mixed with that is an attraction towards being content with things the way that they are whenever possible. It is just so much easier to decide that what you have is good enough. You know, ...en manana.I see that this attitude does not lead to a first world standard of living in some respects but can lead to a greater level of contentment and happiness. Our relentless pursuit of ever more is fouling up a lot of things while it drives us forward.

Yes I get that. It really is one of the core elements of what makes a human. Ceaselessly pursuing improvement. Driven by the ego coupled with our immense curiosity. I am not sure which is the dominate driver. I was speaking with a guy the other week who was adamant that it is our curiosity that sets us apart from all the other creatures. That curiosity is the precursor to intelligence. It is interesting and I wonder how intelligence and curiosity are related and if one could be identified as coming first.My previous thought, though, was about contentment. It seems as though we are not content with being content. Somehow like you are slacking off. Damn near a sin if you ask a protestant. Isn't happiness the goal?