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Author | Topic: Fundamentalism versus Critical Thinking | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Taz's response was excellent, but I do have a comment.
What is wrong with "unchecked skepticism"? IOW, why should skepticism ever be "checked"? In my mind, the world would be a much, much MUCH better place if skepticism was far more prevalent, and credulousness was rare.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: And I think that you have taught that you need religion, but you don't really. What people need is their basic needs met, and a good moral code. Religion is not needed for either of these things. Currently, there are several very secular societies in the world who's citizens are productive and moral. Religious belief in those cultures is rare, and fundamentalism is practically nonexistent. Those societies have some of the least violent, most egalitarian, best educated, and highest standards of living on the planet.
quote: OK. That idea is utterly irrelevant to the vast majority of Swedes, though, and they seem to get along great without it. Why do you think that is?
quote: I'm sure you do take offense. The thing is, am I wrong? If you can't show that I'm wrong, then what does that make me? Nowhere is it written that just becasue some nonsense is named "religion" that it suddenly isn't nonsense anymore. All religion is nonsensical and irrational, by definition. Don't blame me. I don't believe the stuff.
quote: OK. Are you saying that God likes his people to be dull-witted, stupid followers? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/discover_skepticism.html
I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.
”Baruch Spinoza Some people believe that skepticism is the rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse “skeptic” with “cynic” and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas ” no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are “skeptical,” we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe. Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece, when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.” But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you were skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber. Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, which involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are not valid. Other claims, such as hypnosis, the origins of language, and black holes, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion. The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between “know nothing” skepticism and “anything goes” credulity. Over three centuries ago the French philosopher and skeptic, René Descartes, after one of the most thorough skeptical purges in intellectual history, concluded that he knew one thing for certain: Cogito ergo sum ” I think therefore I am. But evolution may have designed us in the other direction. Humans evolved to be pattern-seeking, cause-inferring animals, shaped by nature to find meaningful relationships in the world. Those who were best at doing this left behind the most offspring. We are their descendents. In other words, to be human is to think: Sum Ergo Cogito ”I Am Therefore I Think.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, right. We can only wait for Phat to come back and enlighten us all as to what he meant by "unchecked skepticism".
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say something controversial. The comfort that people get from religion is often a crutch that keeps them from giving themselves credit for their own strength and allows them to make excuses so that they may avoid dealing with reality. "Not dealing with reality" is what we can easily get from religious people, like the President. He has no problem ignoring reality, and that has some very serious consequences for the entire world.
quote: I know what you mean, but it is still my opinion. Look at it this way. When we are little children, we look to our parents when we are frightened or upset or otherwise troubled. We expect them to meet our needs, to protect us, to teach us. As we become older, we are expected to become more and more independent. It would be strange, would it not, to see a 22 year old man run crying to his mother when he stubbed his toe, wouldn't it? To me, religion is like adults inventing invisible surrogate parents to cry to when bad things happen. It is sort of like an arrested development. That's not to say that we can't have adult relationsips with other people that are sources of comfort and wisdom, etc. but all of this stuff about "giving over all control of my life to God" and all of that is just not something that seems healthy for adults to do.
quote: Sometimes, though, the other stuff that one must believe along with the moral code is nonsensical and irrelevant to morality.
quote: Oh, goodness, one cannot agree with my posts far too often! Edited by nator, : No reason given. 'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman "Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"- Ned Flanders
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: That is very true, especially if those people currently or used to regularly and easily believe things without any evidence or in the face of contrary evidence, such as is done in religions, certain political and social codes, etc.. Critical thinking skills take practice, study, and knowledge and understanding of all the different flavors of self-delusion we humans are prone to. Most people don't practice them, or even know about them. Like Feynman said and I've included in my sig: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool."
quote: I'd say yes, although there is a rather steep gradient.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Again, I would say that this is completely wrong. I think that humans LOVE the idea of God/gods, personal or otherwise. Why else would most of the planet believe in some kind of godlike thing?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
But what if a worshipper, raised in the climate of their religion and believed in the power of prayer, didn't stub their toe? rather they lost their wife or husband? daughter or son? a family member or friend very dear to them? They are under excessive stress, pain and suffering. Their head throbs and heart aches. They pray to whomever they pray to to relieve some of the pain. Regardless if they believe their prayers are answered or heard, the fact is when they cite what troubles them, they are often using a form of intropection. They come to better understand themselves and how they feel. This may very well calm them and give them some sort of solace; just a moment's peace. Are we to tell them that they should "be more independent"? To "stop making excuses and avoid dealing with reality"? No, we are not to tell them that. However, it seems that there is a strong desire among the devout to protect their belief at such times as this. It is almost seems more important to them than anything else. Religion also seems to sometimes enforce the glorification of ignorance, helplessness and weakness. "It's God's way, and we are not to understand". "God will take care of us". "It's all part of God's plan". Religion, it seems to me, all seems to come down to caveman fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of being at the mercy of random and uncontrollable events, and fear that we are on our own and what me make of our lives is, in part, up to us. Religion is a way to pass the buck on that responsibility and to avoid having to face the reality that bad/good shit happens and it's nobody's fault/plan. IOW, that there is no all-powerful entity "in control" out there. What is a more effective way to think; to believe a comfortable lie or to realize an uncomfortable reality?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: If you are asking me if I think that everyting that happens is uncaused, then no. For example, the reason a person broke their leg is becasue they took a bad tumble while skiing and the physics of the event resulted in a broken bone. They might also have been lax in maintaining their equipment, or had recently gotten over being ill so were not in the best physical shape, or they might have been on a trail that was too difficult for them, etc. etc. However, if you are asking me if I think that the reason this person broke their leg is so they had to go to the hospital and meet a doctor who would later introduce them to a person who's sibling turned out to be the person they married, and it's all becasue some supernatural entity has willed it to happen that way? Nope. Stuff just happens.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Not true. Everything that happens in the universe is under God's control, He being Omnipotent and all. Sometimes, though, the Devil or demons control certain things and people. At least, that's what most of the religious people have told me is the case over the years.
quote: Not according to most religious people I've interacted with. Most of them say that how we should live is up to God, not up to us. And it is "big-headed" for humans to rely on our own knowledge and wisdom, and we should give over our lives to Jesus.
Religion is a way to pass the buck on that responsibility and to avoid having to face the reality that bad/good shit happens and it's nobody's fault/plan. IOW, that there is no all-powerful entity "in control" out there quote: The difference is in actions taken. Religious people who believe that God heals people through prayer have let their child die instead of allowing them to have life saving medical help. Instead of working hard to preserve the environment, some religious people (in high places) justify raping and laying waste to nature because they believe that the End is Near. I could go on, but I think you get my gist.
quote: But HOW we deal with that shit is important, and too often religion allows people to not have to deal with reality. They tend to muck it up for the rest of us who DO live in reality.
quote: Sure, that's one example that isn't too different in how we might imagine the two mindsets to act. But, as I stated above, the religious mindset has influenced our president to "stay the course" in Iraq becasue he can very easily simply deny reality.
What is a more effective way to think; to believe a comfortable lie or to realize an uncomfortable reality? quote: No I don't. You folks with faith are the one making the claim that the supernatural exists and that it has effects in the natural world.
quote: Do you think that your life would be a "teeny" bit less comfortable to you if you gave up the belief that God loves you or that heaven exists and that when you and your loved ones die, that you don't go anywhere at all? You just die, and that's the end?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
nator writes: What is a more effective way to think; to believe a comfortable lie or to realize an uncomfortable reality? quote: So, which one is right? They can't ALL be correct, because they each conflict in dogma with the others. Each of them have exactly the same quality of checkable evidence, too. None.
quote: That's why I'm an agnostic.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: True. But I doubt there are many people here on these boards who will tell you that it doesn't matter which beliefs are correct.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I think that it can be for everyone, and should be promoted and encouraged much more than it is. Currently, the opposite seems to be encouraged in most of the world. Like I said, the world would be a MUCH better place if we had MORE rational thought, not LESS.
quote: Perhaps. On the other hand, how many religious people who were perfectly sane have perpetrated acts that have hurt others and themselves? Now include the crazy religious people. I really don't think we need to worry much about people going crazy from a lack of religion and an excess of rationality. I am much more concerned with the sane religious people.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No, it isn't. We know, without needing to take anything at all on faith, that humans create religions. Ever heard of cargo cults? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: True. How do you tell the human-created ones from the ?-created ones?
quote: Er, you lost me there. If without humans there would be no religion, then by definition, humans created the concept of religion.
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