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Author | Topic: Increases in Genetic Information | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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I am struggling a bit to understand how this thread differs from the one started by Faith a very short time ago.
I want to strictly impose that these two populations CANNOT remix when they diverge. Not just that they typically don't remix just because they don't feel like it or they are too far away, but they cannot physically, and or genetically remix. This assumption is bad. Because part of the response to your reasoning lies with this bad assumption, I cannot let this go without comment. The proposed model for human evolution involves divergence and variation and then reintegration by combination from diverse populations. Most humans but not all humans have neanderthal genetics. If you insist on this assumption, my response would be that real life does not work like that.
For example, the average species of bacteria have anywhere between 600,000 base pairs of DNA and 7 million base pairs. The average human has about "3164.7 million chemical nucleotide bases" Base pair count is not a great measures of complexity. And as a (standard) counter argument to your claim, an amoeba has 670 billion base pairs or about 200 times as many as do humans.
If they can merge than they are not separate species. This is genetic drift and adaptation by natural selection. Rather than quibble with the terminology here, something I could certainly do, I'll simply note that not all mutations result in speciation. The processes you describe (plus mutation) will act to increase diversity before and after speciation. Only the specific mutation or mutations that cause mating incompatibility are unsharable between species. Yet multiple variations that do not prevent mating or inter-fertility can occur and are shared. What does this do to your argument and your model?
What evidence is there for Macro-evolution? Is there any proved, recorded event of mutations that increased beneficial or useful genetic information? Yes. But we've had entire threads on those specific questions. Your attempts to distinguish between macro and micro evolution stink on ice. Macro evolution can be produced by a bunch of micro steps which eventual produce species which do not interbreed. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
yes but the amoeba, doesn't have nearly as many genes that code for proteins as the human genome, which means that these extra base pairs are probably telomeres which don't code for anything, exons or dna that is involved in directing translation and transcription or something else. Whose argument are you rebutting?
What I had specified was that these base pairs must be actual genes that code for proteins that benefit the cell. No you did not "specify" any such thing. Here is what you actually posted.
For example, the average species of bacteria have anywhere between 600,000 base pairs of DNA and 7 million base pairs. The average human has about "3164.7 million chemical nucleotide bases" Besides, you are quibbling about a passing remark. How about addressing the substantive arguments I posted Edited by NoNukes, : Not testy enough.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course it doesn't work like that, that is why the idea that all life evolved from a common ancestor is a lie. Or perhaps your description of how scientist understand evolution to work is completely wrong. I am not interested in debating with you about how your misconception of evolution does not work. I agree that it does not.
But anyway to get to your real point, humans and apes cannot reproduce and have children can they? That is the definition of species. It is true that there are inconsistencies in our classification of species. But speciation still has a consistent definition. But let's work with speciation which is really what you are complaining about. Are you truly unable to see any problems with your argument? I'll give you a start on finding one problem. 1) There is no single mutation that would convert a human to a non human ape. 2) Neither a modern human nor a modern ape are genetically identical to the ancestors they evolved from. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I've always wondered why you guys don't show more solidarity. I gave your message a cheer just because I applaud the idea of creationists backing each other up.
Now that you've given jbozz21 your moral support, how about giving him some real support by rescuing his argument from the manure pile? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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n another thread, you argue that you can infer the intelligent design of a creator god by indirect evidence, rather than by directly observing him creating, for example, complex multicellular eukaryotes. So, why would it be necessary to directly observe demonstrably real processes like mutation, selection and drift adding "new never before existed information", as you put it, to the genomes of multicellular eukaryotes? Easily answered. Real biology is secular and has no Genesis support. Accordingly it is subject to a much higher standard of review than is the Torah. ID on the other hand is a not so subtle mix of the Bible and 'reasoning'. ID is true, inerrantly, so even circular arguments are legitimate.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
removed
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Taq, are you trying to tell me that all life on earth evolved from a potatoe? Last time I checked the current Threory is that all life on earth evolved from a single micro-organism. No, jbozz21. He is simply trying to tell you that at least one of the arguments in your OP is nonsense.
Last time I checked the current Threory is that all life on earth evolved from a single micro-organism. And is the theory that such an organism was just like a modern bacteria? Is it necessary to assume that single celled organism cannot evolve either? Because your moral support won't join you out on that limb. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No one will even agree on a simple definition. What definition of macro-evolution did we disagree with? Isn't it the one you made up for this thread? So far, other than correcting you on simple factual errors, I've pointed out that your assumption that any evolutionary step (macro or micro) that adds new functionality must also result eliminate inter-fertility is not correct. If you want to define macro-evolution that way, you are not going to get agreement.
If they can have fertile offspring then there is always chance that their populations can recombine and become one single population again thus immobilizing divergent evolution. Some chance, yes. But the chance can, in some cases, be small enough to ignore. Using your example, lions and tigers do not mate in the wild despite the fact that they are inter-fertile. My guess is that humans and modern non-human apes are not inter-fertile. But even if some non human apes and humans could produce offspring, they do not do so.
Can they have fertile offspring? For example Mules and Horses cannot have fertile offspring. They are different species. Yes. They are. But as you yourself pointed out, the classification system that we use to label lions and tigers species is not quite so exact. ABE: Holy cow dude. You cited a definition that included the statement that species are "usually" not interfertile. What's up with that? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I am only asking for an observation of an important part of the process ie a reason to believe universal common decent is possible. You are asking that the 'important part' be established by direct evidence. Here is you saying that only direct evidence is acceptable.
...their [sic] had to be a whole lot of added new never before existed information to the chromosomal DNA of all multi-celled organisms. The only evidence in biology that can demonstrate this has possibly happened would be at least one observation of the above occuring. Direct evidence only. Yet every single step of demonstrating ID in biological organisms requires inference. No direct evidence whatsoever is used.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
lus there is good reason to suggest that they were "designed" to cope with a variety of extreme situations where normal food supplies become scarce. Assuming a designed response to starvation, how many generations of starvation would be a reasonable number to pass before the response would kick in? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Can they have fertile offspring? For example Mules and Horses cannot have fertile offspring. They are different species. By the way, I think you meant donkeys and horses. Mules are sterile and cannot have any offspring even other mules. Female mules have been known to bear offspring, but male mules cannot sire offspring. What lesson you get from this I know not. Surely you are not calling breeding mules any sort of evolution? What's your point here.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes... that is exactly what I am saying in my original post... I am saying the first micro-organism would have to be a very simple bacteria, not a complex organism with many genes. You said a lot more than that, much of which was wrong. From the wiki article you cited:
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I would classify Lions and Tigers the same species but different subspecies and they should be. They don't meet the definition you quoted. Do you still maintain that it is the fault of the participants here that we don't all have the same definition of species? You don't even agree with the references you cite. What is pretty clear is that lions and tigers developed distinct characteristics despite their ability to interbreed, because it turns out that they never do in the wild. What does that suggest to you about the assumptions in your OP? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes, I love how you make broad claims that you don't support at all. Makes me think you cannot support your claims. And I dislike intensely that I can catch you in errors and lies with little to no effort. Particularly when the error is personal. I challenge you to cite an unsupported claim from me in this thread. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
They are not genealogically isolated because you can breed them with dogs that are slightly larger or smaller than it, until it's descendants become big enough to breed with the Great Dane. Therefore the gene pool is not isolated so their genes can be remixed. Dogs are all of the same species. The only thing maintaining any breed of dog as breed is humans stepping in to through buckets of cold water onto the heat. Examples using dogs don't prove much of anything, one way or the other about evolution. And female mules can be made pregnant using artificial means. The big problem for your definition is that complete inability to breed is not the defining characteristic of how species are classified. It is 'usually' the case that species cannot interbreed. But despite your desire to otherwise require such a thing, lions and tigers are two different species. I'd also argue that this part of the discussion is actually moving away from a point you wish to establish. In the case of lions and tigers it is pretty clear that no absolute inability to breed is required to maintain or even develop diversity. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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