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Author Topic:   Tower of Babel
dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 15 of 31 (694663)
03-26-2013 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
03-26-2013 12:20 PM


Re: Genesis 11
As in biology, the boundaries between dialects and languages can be difficult to ascertain and can therefore be set arbitrarily.
There are many regional dialects of German and which are considered by Germans to be very difficult to understand. We also saw the same thing with English in PBS' The Story of English where Englishmen speaking their own dialects had to be subtitled for the audience to be able to understand them; this was done to comic effect in Hot Fuzz when a chain of two constables were needed to interpret what a local farmer was saying (the constable who could understand the farmer could not be understood by the sergeant, so another constable had to interpret for him).
In the general region of Belgium and the Netherlands alone there are several distinct dialects of German. So when do they stop being a dialect of German and become a language in their own right? According to the encyclopedia I grew up with, Dutch became its own language about 400 years ago when it developed its own literature. Nothing changed in Dutch at that point except that an arbitrary decision was made about its linguistical status.
So then the same thing could have happened with French, in that a change in how it was used, namely that it started being used in literature, caused an arbitrary decision to be made about its status as a language. Says nothing about how French had developed over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 03-26-2013 12:20 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 03-26-2013 7:57 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 21 of 31 (694682)
03-27-2013 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eli
03-26-2013 9:42 PM


Re: Genesis 11
Or do I really have to explain that people can, in fact, be mulilingual, speaking a variant of their mother language in their profession that is unintelligible to those not initiated in the profession?
Just how does that that variant (AKA "jargon") differ from the mother language? Same verb system. Same structure (AKA "grammar"). Even mostly the same vocabulary. Even most of the jargon's specialized vocabulary is drawn directly from the mother language, just with different definitions. The only real differences, besides the different specialized definitions, would be archac and foreign terms, plus some neologisms.

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 Message 18 by Eli, posted 03-26-2013 9:42 PM Eli has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 22 of 31 (694737)
03-27-2013 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon
03-26-2013 7:57 PM


Re: Genesis 11
As I said in Message 15 (part you left out of the quote in bold):
DWise1 writes:
So then the same thing could have happened with French, in that a change in how it was used, namely that it started being used in literature, caused an arbitrary decision to be made about its status as a language. Says nothing about how French had developed over time.
I was commenting on Eli's statement about changes in French's status as a language, not how it originated.
And I believe that my Message 21 answers your question:
Do you have any evidence of languages or dialects diverging beyond intelligibility because of 'technical jargon used by specialists'?
Mainly, I do not hold such a position myself and I find it very weak.
What the Bable myth does not explain is how languages split off and develop and why they are so obviously related to each others in the ways that they are.

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 Message 17 by Jon, posted 03-26-2013 7:57 PM Jon has not replied

  
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