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Author | Topic: Have You Ever Read Ephesians? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Jlicher and Goodspeed suggested that Ephesians may have served as an introduction to the collection of Pauline letters.
Some earlier manuscripts do not have the phrase in Ephesus in them, which is why some scholars believe it to be a circular letter and not one written specifically to the Church at Ephesus. (as has been mentioned earlier) Per Goodspeed in An Introduction to the New Testament, The Epistle to the Ephesians:
Ephesians is a great rhapsody on the worth of the Christian salvation. Like Hebrews it belongs to an age when men needed to reflect on the worth of their faith. The situation lying back of it is twofold: the sects are beginning to appear, and the Pauline letters have been discovered and collected. To introduce this collection to Christians everywhere, to remind apathetic Christians of the great values of their faith, and to check the rising tide of sect and schism Ephesians is written.
As I understand it, pseudography was not a problem in ancient times unless one did so to deceive for some purpose. I don’t see Ephesians as a document to deceive, but to give readers an idea of what to expect when they read the letters of Paul.Even though the situations addressed by Paul to specific churches had since passed by the time Ephesians is considered to be written by some scholars, that doesn't negate the basics of Paul’s life lessons. Second-generation Christianity needed to be reminded of the great religious values it had inherited, as the Revelation and Hebrews show. Ephesians opens with a jubilant summary of Pauline thought, 1:3-14. The writer sets forth the supreme worth of Christianity, which his contemporaries were in danger of forgetting, 1:15-23. The Christian experience is nothing less than a new life through the mercy of God, 2:1-10. The death of Christ has opened to the Greeks a way to God, 2:11-22. Paul in his writings has declared the Greeks' full rights in Christianity, 3:1-13, as they will see when they read his letters. Basically, keep moving forward, treat others well, and don’t fall back to old bad behavior.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I don't see an exhortation to "walk in the spirit" in Ephesians. The first chapter just speaks of blessings and prayers. Paul gets into "walking in the spirit" in Galatians. If this debate is about Ephesians, I don't see the relevance of the question. quote:Again, I don't see the relevance of the question given what is written. I don't think Ephesians can help you. Paul's letter contain his arguments and reasoning. quote:Verses 8-10 probably answer your question. I don't think it deals with ones willingness. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. I don't think the author is saying that "making one alive in Christ" forces one to be willing and able to do good deeds. He's summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Your Message 27 and Message 30 are just long versions of saying what I already said.
"Walk in the Spirit"Apparently I wasn't using exhortation correctly based on Phat's question in Message 22. My point was that the phrase isn't used in Ephesians. Now that I've looked up the meaning and find that exhortation is inciting by argument or advice, I agree and had already stated in Message 19 that the author was saying that believers shouldn't fall back to old bad behavior. That was Paul's point in Galatians 5. They were to conduct their lives by thinking of others and not just their own needs. Galatians 5:16-25 "Alive in Christ"
quote:I said in Message 25 that the author was summarizing Paul's argument concerning adoption into God's chosen family and you've provided the long version. Thanks for the confirmation. What I've presented is that Ephesians is probably a cover letter for a collection of Pauline letters. The author is summarizing Paul's theology. Explanation or deeper understanding of what the author is talking about can probably be found in the Pauline epistles. Message 19
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I try to avoid using idioms without providing explanations. I'm trying to look at the reality and practical application. The new and old wine parable is not part of Paul's teaching and really concerns a different issue than self correction. That's really a different debate. Greeks choosing to change from previous Greek lifestyle and belief system to a Christian lifestyle and belief system is like turning over a new leaf. Believing in Christ is a choice. Leaving the old ways behind is a choice. Supposedly once that choice is made, the Holy Spirit is to help believers with self control in maintaining that choice. Per Paul, self control is a fruit of the spirit. (Galatians 5) Since this letter is urging people to remember and urging them to live a life worthy of the calling they received (Ephesians 4), there is an element of self in the equation. We are still responsible for our choices and even conducting our lives "by the spirit" requires daily choices on our part.
quote:They choose not to be guided by the Christian Holy Spirit; but right behavior is right behavior whether guided by a belief system or not. This debate is about the Christian lifestyle not any other. quote:Turning over a new leaf doesn't automatically mean taking a fresh go a being good. It is just a change in one's actions or attitude. Could be good or could be bad. To repent is to change one's mind or purpose. Each person is going to have their own way of changing their life style if they choose. Christians choose to follow the ways of God/Jesus. No matter how one spins the religious verbiage; individuals have to make a choice.Believers choose to surrender, they aren't forced to.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
It's still just Christian verbiage for making a change. Being born again is change.
I'm not disagreeing that the NT writers were presenting a supernatural element that goes along with the choice to believe, but they also didn't negate the individuals responsibility for their choices in their daily lives. Ephesians shows this by encouraging people to persevere, keep on track. If the supernatural took over with no interference from the individuals mind, then they wouldn't stray and wouldn't need encouragement. Believers couldn't be tempted. Some Christians were getting apathetic.
Goodspeed on Ephesians In a prayerful appeal the writer sets forth the grandeur of the Christian's experience of Christ's love, and an exultant doxology marks the conclusion of the main part of the epistle, 3:14-21 Christians must be united against the sects, 4:1-15 There is but one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. We must not be blown about and swung around by every wind of doctrine through the trickery of men with their ingenuity in inventing error. Christians must live the new, upright life of purity, patience integrity, and forbearance, 4:17-5:2. They must give up their old sins and live in the new light, 5:3-21. The marriage relation is made the symbol of the union of Christ with the church, 5:22-33. Children, parents, slaves, and masters have their special duties as Christians, 6:1-9. They must all put on the Christian armor and carry on the Christian warfare, 6:10-20. The farewell, 6:21-24, mentions Tychicus, Paul's well-known messenger of Col. 4:7, Acts 20:4. This is a part of the Pauline disguise, like Timothy in Hebrews 13:23 and Silvanus and Mark in I Pet. 5:12, 13. Reminders wouldn't be necessary."A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I'm not sure why you find what I've said to be difficult or feel the basics are different than what you're presenting or what Ephesians is presenting.
I just left out all the religious verbiage. I haven't presented that the author of Ephesians says we should be separate from Christ. This thread deals with Ephesians, which pertains to Christians.
quote: quote:I haven't presented anything to the contrary either. As Paul pointed out, all one needs is belief to be adopted. Paul was trying to bring these people into the family of the God of Abraham. Paul's overall point is that the Jews weren't chosen because of their stellar behavior. Abraham believed in the one God and God chose to protect Abraham and his descendants. But...within that chosen group, those who were in right standing with the God of Abraham were the ones who were behaving. Paul presents the Gentiles as adopted into that family. His argument is that they weren't adopted in because of stellar behavior, but through belief just like Abraham. (Romans 4) But...being part of the family also means one has to behave according to the rules of the family. All are loved, but all are to behave or suffer the consequences. (Romans 6-7) Getting into God's family takes belief, but being in right standing with God takes right behavior. Unbelief gets one removed from the family, not wrong behavior. (Romans 11) The author of Ephesians is talking to Christians, not people who have not chosen to believe in Christ. So they are already adopted into the family or saved if you wish. They may be getting lax in their behavior: not taking care of others or family as they should or straying from the path once too often, etc. He is spurring them to remember and get back on the path.
quote:Those floundering have to make a choice to read the letters. Those not floundering have to make a choice to help those who are floundering. Christians make daily choices to continue on the path or not, to continue to believe or not. Since I'm only talking about Christians, I'm not sure why you feel my posts are contrary to what you are saying or what Ephesians is saying. You're basically confirming what I've said.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The debate isn't about whether you can use the verbiage. That's your thing. My point is that you're restating what I have said in a longer fashion. I don't see the point of doing that in response to my posts. I haven't presented anything contrary to what is written in Ephesians or Paul's writings. Not sure what your issue is with what I've posted.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I haven't suggested that the author is saying one can succeed apart from Christ. Refer back to the question that Phat asked. Dead in sins is being apart from God/Christ, IOW not under his influence or protection. Alive in Christ/God means no longer apart from his influence or protection. An alive-in-Christ-walking-with-the-spirit-born-again Christian is still capable of deciding not to do a good deed; but as I pointed out, according to Paul, that doesn't remove them from God's presence. Being alive in Christ influences one to do good deeds, but I don't see that either author suggests that that influence forces one to do good deeds. The important word here is force. The Holy Spirit supposedly guides. Galatians 5:16
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This verse isn't saying that God goes in and rewires the believers brain so that the believer is no longer capable of choosing wrong or failing to help others. Barnes' Notes on the Bible (1) It is not God who acts for us. He leads us to "will and to do." It is not said that he wills and does for us, and it cannot be. It is man that "wills and does" - though God so influences him that he does it. I look at it as God helping to strengthen the believer's good inclination (yetzer tov).
Jewish Beliefs about Human Nature According to this view, the yetzer tov is the moral conscience that reminds a person of God's law when one considers a specific action or choice. The yetzer ra is the impulse to satisfy one's own needs and desires. There is nothing intrinsically evil about the yetzer ra, as it was created by God and is natural to humankind. It is also what drives us to good things such as eating, drinking, having a family, and making a living. However, it can easily lead to sin when not kept in check by the yetzer tov. IMO, right choices strengthen the good inclination. Introducing Paul's writings to apathetic Christians would be a good way to help them persevere and get back on track. Get back to listening to their good inclination. Nothing I've presented argues for the idea that Ephesians says that one has salvation through good behavior. Like I said before, the letter is for believers. They are already saved. Your pushback possibilities are off track. You're just creating your own opposition. This debate isn't about what we care about, it is about what Ephesians actual says. My position is that it is a summary of Paul's theology presented in his letters.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Not a good analogy. The dispute over the authorship of Ephesians isn't based on a rumor. A Sermon on Ephesians The Epistle to the Ephesians, often shortened to Ephesians, is the tenth book of the New Testament. Its authorship has traditionally been credited to Paul, but it is considered by some scholars to be Deutero-pauline, that is, written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought. Bible scholar Raymond E. Brown asserts that about 80% of critical scholarship judges that Paul did not write Ephesians, while Perrin and Duling say that of six authoritative scholarly references, "four of the six decide for pseudonymity, and the other two (PCB and JBC) recognize the difficulties in maintaining Pauline authorship. Indeed, the difficulties are insurmountable." Is the letter reliable? My question would be reliable as what? It's a letter. As I stated earlier, some scholars feel it is a summary of Paul's theology and probably an introduction to the collection of Pauline letters. Message 19 Eph also refers to most of the other letters of Paul. In many ways it seems like a summary of Paul's ideas, written by a disciple of his, and brought up to date for the Church of his own time. The author presents a more universal church than existed in Paul's time.
Eph shows that the Church is becoming an advanced and powerful universal institution (rather like the Church today). In Paul's time there did no universal Church in that sense, but only informal gatherings of individual believe communities. It is a letter written to believers, not nonbelievers. It is a letter encouraging believers to persevere. Ignatius gives similar encouragement in his letter to the Ephesians and brings them up to date for their time. As noted below, one should "look upon the bishop as we would upon the Lord Himself."
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that you all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor, indeed, do you hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ speaking in truth. Unfortunately we don't know how pseudographic letters were presented to the audience of the time. Early Christianity was chaotic. Pseudepigraphy was a commonly accepted practice in the ancient world, unless it was recognized as a deliberate deception. If one is going to look at reliability, one needs to look at the purpose of the letter. Was the main purpose to deceive? I don't see deception as the main purpose of the letter.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As we sift thorough the information in the links I provided earlier, we see that Bible scholars are divided on the issue of authenticity. There is a difference between authenticity and reliability. Although the letter may not have been written by Paul, did it summarize Paul's theology accurately? If yes, then the letter provided reliable information concerning Christian values of the time.
The Deutero-Pauline Letters Note: Judging a particular letter to be pseudepigraphic does not mean that it is any less valuable than the other letters, but only that it was written later by someone other than Paul.
The letter is no different than the copious books at a Christian bookstore all trying to tell the believer how to apply the "word of God" to current issues. While pseudonyms are acceptable today, pseudography not so much; but pseudography wasn't uncommon in the first century.
Apocrypha of Jewish origin Ancient literature, especially in the Orient, used methods much more free and elastic than those permitted by our modern and Occidental culture. Pseudographic composition was in vogue among the Jews in the two centuries before Christ and for some time later. The attribution of a great name of the distant past to a book by its real author, who thus effaced his own personality, was, in some cases at least, a mere literary fiction which deceived no one except the ignorant. Ancient pseudography doesn't automatically mean the information in the writing is false or unreliable. The letter made it into the canon.
The Canon of the Bible Canonical books are those books which have been acknowledged as belonging to the list of books the Church considers to be inspired and to contain a rule of faith and morals. Some criteria used to determine canonicity were
The Christian canon(s) have been developed through debate and agreement by the religious authorities of the time. Believers consider canonical books to be inspired by God or to express the authoritative history of the religion.
The Reality of the Biblical Canon Whether the letter is pseudographic or not does not change the contents of the letter.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Keep on track. This debate is about Ephesians and Ephesians was either written by Paul or by another. I have presented the idea that it is written by another as a summary of Paul's theology. The link I provided in Message 79 listed several reasons why Ephesians is not considered to be written by Paul. I quoted this one.
A Sermon on Ephesians
Eph shows that the Church is becoming an advanced and powerful universal institution (rather like the Church today). In Paul's time there did no universal Church in that sense, but only informal gatherings of individual believe communities.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I think your idea of universal church is different that what the article presented. Universal Church Christian Church, the whole body of Christians collectivelyCatholic Church (the word "catholic" means "universal") Ecumenism Unitarian Universalism Universalism Universal Church of the Kingdom of God Universal Church of Truth I feel the article I was quoting is referring to the early visible beginnings of the Catholic Church. How are you using the phrase? I think a debate over the Universal Church Theory would be off track this thread. You can ask Phat.
Pauline Epistles These seven epistles are considered authentic by most scholars.
The Pastoral Epistles are considered to be pseudepigraphic by the majority of modern scholars.
Modern scholars are divided on the following three epistles.
quote:The authentic letters are written to specific groups and dealing with specific issues that concern that group. Paul presents his arguments to back up his instruction. Ephesians doesn't seem to provide the in-depth arguments that Paul does. I would say the arguments for what is being said in Ephesians can be found within Paul's letters. To see the authentic letters as summaries of Paul's teachings, one would need to know what Paul's teachings were outside of the letters. We don't have that information that I know of.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Galatians is considered authentic. First Thessalonian is considered authentic. Romans is considered authentic. From what I've read, they don't feel this type of evidence is in Ephesians. That extra personal touch that is Paul.
Goodspeed stated in his introduction to Ephesians that the letter provides no definite historical situation that the letter is supposed to address. He feels that Paul clearly divulges under what conditions he wrote his letters and the purpose on his mind. Another issue he has is that he feels the author presents the apostles and prophets as the foundations of the church (Ephesians 2:20), whereas Paul thought of Christ as the foundation of the church. (1 Corinthians 3:11) Goodspeed also feels the author reveals himself to be a Greek, which Paul is not.
5. The church has become Greek; for the whole body of Christians addressed in 1:1 were once physically heathen, 2:2, 11. There is no room for any Jewish Christianity in the picture.
6. The writer himself had been in the same condition, 2:3, and hence is a gentile Christian. Paul scrupulously distinguished between the sins of the lews and the grosser ones of the heathen, Romans, chapters 1, 2. It is these grosser ones which the writer now confesses for himself and his readers. Both he and they are Greek; compare II Cor. 11:22; Gal. 2:15; Phil. 3:4.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I can't really respond until you clarify how you are using the phrase Universal Church as I asked in Message 88. Edited by purpledawn, : can to can't
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