Off Topic Posts aka Rabbit Trail Thread - Mostly YEC Geology

What is the actual history of the writing down of the Torah, AKA the Pentateuch? IOW, how long were those stories passed on as oral tradition before they were written down?Biblical scholars place the writing during the Babylonian exile, cerca 600 BCE. Since Moses is dated by Judaism at about 1300 BCE (and even earlier by Christian tradition), that means the Books of Moses were oral tradition for about seven centuries.A lot can happen to an oral tradition in seven centuries. A lot can even happen within just a couple generations.

Uh, "wrote"? After Moses (c. 1300 BCE), Genesis was transmitted via oral tradition until it was finally written down about 700 years later circa 600 BCE. That is to say that after a 700-year chain of one generation after another telling the next generation "here's what Moses said", one generation finally wrote it down.Shortly after the start of the 19th century, the Classical period gave way to the Romantic, whose characteristics included nationalism which further drove them to examine folklore. They believed that folk tales extended far back in time and had been transmitted unchanged over hundreds of generations. What they discovered instead was that very few stories were more than a few generations old.Furthermore, we find that each generation has a tendency to "improve" the story with new information. There is an isolated tribe in Africa, "completely" cut off from the rest of the world. Part of their mythology centers around Sirius (Alpha Canis Majoris, "The Dog Star", the brightest star in the night sky). In 1862, a faint companion star to Sirius was discovered. Anthropologists were amazed that this tribe's mythology included a companion for Sirius, leading some to wonder how they could have discovered that (ancient aliens buffs would have had a field day with this one). However, the notes of a previous team of anthropologists show that at that time the mythology said nothing about any companion to Sirius. That means that somehow news of that discovery had leaked in from the outside, possibly by someone in that earlier anthropological team, and the tribe immediately incorporated it into their oral tradition.Similarly, American Indian creation myths have undergone extensive "rewriting" in response to their contact and bitter experience with Europeans.A lot can happen to an oral tradition in seven centuries. It does not make any sense to me how you can blame an ancient figure for "saying" what somebody else wrote down 700 years later. It is your theology that is saying that, not any of us. Theologies are all man-made and fallible. A theology can be wrong about something without it being God's fault.

Ah, yes, Steve Austin. Who has been using his PhD Geology to know how to gather samples that will produce bogus results. And who, as a graduate student, wrote under the pseudonym of Stuart Nevins "geology" articles for the Creation Research Society Quarterly which made completely false statements about geology that any undergraduate and even non-geologist would know to be false.Faith, please learn something about geology. Contact and talk with actual geologists about your ideas. Ask actual geologists any questions that you have about geology.There's an old problem presented by creationists and their effect on their attempts at Christian witnessing: if everything you say that we can verify turns out to be completely false, how are we supposed to believe you about anything you say that we cannot verify?There is also the observation that "creation science" is a disproportionate contributor to the growth and spread of atheism.

Glenn R. Morton went to work as a field geologist for a petroleum company. His only schooling in geology was from the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), whose president was the Father of Flood Geology, Dr. Henry Morris, Hydraulic Engineering. Morton hired on several other geology graduates of the ICR. They all suffered crises of faith when faced day after day after day with the rock-hard facts of geology, which presented them on a daily basis with incontrovertible facts that they had been taught did not exist and could not exist "if Scripture were to have any meaning." (John Morris, son and heir of Henry, having claimed to be a petroleum geologist because he had once taught that course in university, at the 1986 International Conference on Creationism (ICC) in response to Morton's devastating presentation, though the quote was actually in response to Morton's question of "How old is the earth" and the actual quote was, "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning.").A creationist who learns geology and then goes out and practices it will learn, most often against his will and wishes, the truth, that the creationists have been lying to him all along. A creationist who learns geology and then does not practice it will remain a deluded fool.

No, it is the creationists who teach that evolution requires atheism and who teach that you must believe things that are clearly contrary-to-fact or else become an atheist. Creationists who teach that evolution opposes the Bible. Creationists who teach that you must choose between their narrow interpretation of the Bible and "atheistic evolution."It is the creationists who insist that believing in the Bible requires believing things that are so contrary-to-fact and ridiculous that most sane people end up rejecting the Bible outright. Just as the creationists have insisted that they must.Edited by dwise1, : dBCode glitch

Ask Glenn R. Morton.Yes, that's right, ask an actual geologist! Go ahead, ask him! Or are you going to start screaming at me hysterically? Again!

Yes, he did post here. Though not currently.My claim is that that was his experience. It is not only general knowledge, but was also verified by his postings. Of late, he has taken a lot off-line for whatever reason (others can fill you in on the details). Still, my claim is truthful. Even if he had not restricted access to his site, you would have needed to contact him for specific details. So do so, even though it violates your aversion to ever communicate with an actual geologist. Oh yes you did! Not only in CAPS, but in greatly enlarged fonts. Repeatedly in your emails to me! That was screaming in uncontrolled hysteria! At the very thought that I would implore you to dare to learn something about geology and to direct your questions for specifics at actual geologists.Your lying about your hysterical screaming is unconscionable. Especially when an attitude of requesting you to learn about geology and to converse with actual geologists could hardly be consider being "mentally ossified".

Yes! Yes! Yes! That's me!!!A year after having been baptized, I decided that I needed to get serious about this Christianity stuff, so I started reading the Bible, since I was supposed to believe that stuff. It didn't take long at all for me to realize that I couldn't believe any of what I was reading.And, yeah, the only way that evolution could possibly cause anyone to lose their faith is if their religion had required them to do so.

"De Genese ad litteram", Saint Augustine, fourth century:

quote:

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It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world -- respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing.

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"And the real evil is not that a man is subjected to derision because of his error, but it is that to profane eyes, our authors (that is to say, the sacred authors) are regarded as having had such thoughts; and are also exposed to blame and scorn upon the score of ignorance, to the greatest possible misfortune of people whom we wish to save. For, in fine, these profane people happen upon a Christian busy in making mistakes on a subject which they know perfectly well; how, then, will they believe these holy books? How will they believe in the resurrection of the dead and in the hope of life eternal, and in the kingdom of heaven, when, according to an erroneous assumption, these books seem to them to have as their object those very things which they, the profane, by their direct experience or by calculation which admits of no doubt? It is impossible to say what vexation and sorrow prudent Christians meet with through these presumptuous and bold spirits who, taken to task one day for their silly and false opinion, and realizing themselves on the point of being convicted by men who are not obedient to the authority of our holy books, wish to defend their assertions so thoughtless, so bold, and so manifestly false. For they then commence to bring forward as a proof precisely our holy books, or again they attribute to them from memory that which seems to support their opinion, and they quote numerous passages, understanding neither the texts they quote, nor the subject about which they are making statement.

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To repeat, if we catch you lying to us about something that we can verify, then why should we ever believe you about your claims that we cannot verify?Is the Bible "the foundation" and does evolution indeed oppose it? Your theology says so, but then all theologies are Man-made. Fallible things, those theologies. Full of error."compromise God's word". Are you claiming to know "God's word"? Are you that omniscient? Or are you merely saying "compromise my fallible interpretation of what I presume to be 'God's word'"? Because it's all just your puny fallible theology, isn't it? And your highly questionable interpretation, isn't it?And when your fallible and faulty interpretation leads you to make claims that anybody can see are pure rubbish, you continue to insist that that pure rubbish must be believed over the blatantly obvious truth that everybody else can clearly see, what other consequence is possible. Your nonsense will be immediately dismissed as such and your other theological proclamations will be consigned to the same rubbish heap.Here is how it ultimately goes down: you tell us to believe in complete nonsense or else become atheists and we say, "No!". What part of that do you still not understand?

No, I am saying that I could not believe what I was reading in the Bible. Pure and simple.

Oh yes you did. You initiated that communication. Because I kept insisting that you learn something about geology and that you ask actual geologists your questions? You call that "obnoxious"? I call it just plain common sense!And your responses were to use enlarged fonts to yell at me hysterically! I keep an archive of all my emails (something I learned on CompuServe with it's "pay by the minute" approach, but which stood me well when dealing with another creationist, just as dishonest and untruthful as the rest), so should I share some of your "responses" to me?And then later I Google'd and found in your blog that you had had a question about how geologists can tell whether a layer had been laid down rapidly or slowly and then you claimed that I would not answer you. But then you never did ask me that question, did you? You fucking liar!

No, you are asking about what Glenn R. Morton and all the creationist geologists he had hired saw. For that, you need to ask Glenn R. Morton! What part of that do you not understand?The facts have already been presented to you plentifully, but you always choose to ignore them. Why should I waste my time playing your perverted game? If you want to know Glenn R. Morton's specific facts, then ask him!Also, your question as it stands if pure nonsense. Why should the study of geology "turn a person away from faith in the Bible", unless what that person had been falsely taught about the Bible would require that he turn away from the Bible? Please read what he had to say!If you make claims that are clearly false, then everything you say will be dismissed as false. What part of that do you refuse to understand?

Of course you don't remember much, because you are clueless!You ask questions about geology, but you never ever ask them of any actual geologists! Of course not, because then you would learn that your fantasies are complete nonsense!We suggest that you learn something about geology, but that will never happen, because then you would learn that your fantasies are complete nonsense!And you will lie about everything you can on your blog, because lies is all that creationists have to work with, right?So why are you so scared of asking Glenn R. Morton about those rock-hard geological facts? He's the one who knows them. Why are you so scared to ask him? Why don't you ask him? What are you so afraid of? What's keeping you back? To begin with, if the Bible is true, then what could it possibly have to fear from the truth? It shouldn't, so why are you so afraid?Second, why should any fact from geology "turn a person away from the Bible"? Facts are facts. They are neutral. If the Bible is true, then nothing that any science reveals should be any cause for concern. Facts are after all facts.Just what would "turn a person away from the Bible"? The only thing I can think of is theology. False theology. Theology that falsely proclaims that the facts are wrong and must be ignored. Theology that falsely proclaims that if the world is indeed as we find it to be, then Scripture has no meaning and one must turn away from the Bible. Does science teach that? No, it does not! Does creationism teach that? Yes, it does!

Bullshit!I have never claimed that one should turn away from faith in the Bible! I demand that you support that lie!I have repeatedly offered that false theologies could force one into a false dilemma where if the world is indeed how we find it, then one must reject one's religion. I have also repeatedly and persistently argued that that is indeed a false dilemma.

Bullshit! Bullshit!It is indeed your interpretation and your theology! And, not, it is not "God" talking, but rather you saying that that is what "God" is saying. It is your theology, isn't it? Based on a simplistic interpretation, as Ringo agreed to be.And you continue to lie about my position. I have never once proposed that geology should be against the Bible. Rather, I have repeatedly argued that false interpretations would lead followers to falsely claim that geological evidence opposes the Bible. Get a clue!In your hysterical frenzy, try to stop and think for a moment.If what you insist upon are blatant and obvious falsehoods, then what does that say about your position? That it is obviously false, right? You've cut your own throat!You want to know what Glenn R. Morton has to say? Ask him! Get a clue!