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| Author | Topic: Is eugenics the logical result of Darwinism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days)  Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The logic is clear in the post, too taxing for your patience though it apparently is. Well, I did have ADD long before it became a fad. Anyway, I wasn't looking for "development" of logic. I was looking for logic. Something along the lines of:1. Darwinism says A 2. A results in B. 3. Therefore, Darwinism results in B. Can you have pity on those of us who can't wade through pages of rhetoric? Can you put it simply in three or four sentences? If you can do that, then we can debate whether or not your logic is sound. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
An idiot? Ray Martinez said I was a moron.
Now I'm really confused. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: The theory itself about how we got where we are, as a mass of meaningless chemicals just randomly tossed together over aeons is a what I was referring to as a mechanical and physical understanding of human nature that leads to the devaluation of life. First off, you're wrong about the randomness. Selection occurs at the chemical level as well as the biological level. So your false premise here does not lead to your conclusion.
You say evolution predicts morality, but that's because you know morality exists. It's all too easy to look at the history of humanity and just subsume whatever you find there under evolutionism. Don't confuse history with logic. Obviously we can't predict what evolution will do before the fact. What I am saying is that "survival of the fittest" logically predicts altruistic behaviour. A species benefits from protecting the young, weak, etc. because it makes them more likely to reproduce. Eugenics, on the other hand, arbitrarily chooses certain characteristics to preserve. It is diametrically opposed to natural selection.
It makes of morality, makes of the Ten Commandments, nothing but a blind mechanical meaningless instrument of survival. The Ten Commandments are a codification of what every society has known instinctively since the beginning of time. "Thou shalt not kill" = don't mess with natural selection. "Thou shalt not steal" = leave everybody enough to survive on. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" = take care of your own children. They make more sense in the context of survival than as the whims of God.
Always mere survival is the highest value from the evo perspective, a very empty value. A bunch of chemicals live and die. Big deal. Who cares. There's no need to project your own bleak outlook on everybody else. I've never met an "evo" who didn't see the beauty in life and have a purpose in life.
You might read up on the Existentialists, who express a different reaction to evolutionism than the optimistic types who thought it would lead to human progress. Now you're confusing philosophy with logic. Some philosophers may see a connection but the topic here is "Is eugenics the logical result...." Not "Can Darwinism be interpreted by Hitler, Nietzsche, Faith, etc. in a certain way...." As others have tried to show you, Christianity can be perverted too, but slavery, etc. are not the logical result of Christianity.
Absolutely leads to it, and to euthanasia and to all kinds of social and genetic engineering. That is what you have failed to show, and repeating it over and over doesn't strengthen your argument.
A general demoralization is another, and the state of despair and meaninglessness the existentialists wrote about. But most people just ignore its implications and go on living as if they didn't exist. Now you lost me. You say that Darwinism leads to a state of despair and meaninglessness. Then you immediately say that people go on living as if the implications didn't exist. Which is it? Are we in a state of despair? (Personally, I am not. I think your outlook on life is much more bleak than mine.  ) Or do we just not reallize how desparate Darwinism has made us? People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: Didn't you say my premise was just fine last post? Your premise was fine until you injected randomness into it. It's the idea of randomness that's wrong.
...selection sure does put a lot of PURPOSE and MEANING into the process. I never said it did. Most people are capable of finding purpose and meaning in their own lives.
Science has some gall trying to explain the human condition if you ask me. Actually, I didn't ask you, but thanks for your input anyway.
Yup, survival, reproduction, exactly as I said. What a LOVELY value, a LOVELY purpose to life. Again, I never said that. Survival and reproduction are necessary for us to have life. But it's our responsibility to find our own purpose and meaning. We can't rely on any natural process or religious spoon-feeding to give it to us.
Natural selection is a blind process.... There is nothing purposive in natural selection beyond immediate adaptation. The appeal of human-directed selection, on the other hand, is obvious -- it would be guided by intelligence to supposedly ideal purposes. So you agree then that natural selection and eugenics are exact opposites?
And certainly your opinion trumps that of millions of others who disagree with you. I'm not going to get into a game of "my-millions-can-beat-your-millions". I'm also not going to call you on that completely unsupported assertion. This topic is about logic, it's not a popularity contest. If millions of people are illogical, that doesn't help your case.
This is not about you and me or anybody personally, this is about the natural tendency of the idea of evolution.... You are the one that claims that evolution --> lack of purpose --> despair. As somebody else has said, it seems that you percieve evolution as a threat to your world view and that produces despair in you. I only refered to your bleak world view in reference to your logic. Your reasoning would more properly be: evolution --> threat to Christianity --> despair among Christians. I certainly didn't mean it as a personal attack, but only as an observation. I'm sorry that you feel it necessary to call my objections "stupid". As I've said before in other threads, I'll leave it to the intelligent members of the board to decide whose posts make sense. ------------- Edit: I didn't see your edited-in, left-handed apology before I posted. Again, I'll leave it to the intelligent members to decide who's insulting whom. (Note to moderators: please don't sanction Faith on my account.) This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-05-31 01:00 PM People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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