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Author Topic:   When to be literal?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 21 of 66 (677689)
10-31-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
10-31-2012 1:02 PM


Book Curses
quote:
So we see the Bible makes all of the above claims about itself and how it is not to be modified.
Book curses and document curses were not uncommon in ancient days.
The curses deal with the specific writing, not the entire Bible.
Psalms 12:6-7 is a song. Songs use literary devices. This song has nothing to do with not modifying the Bible. The them in verse 7 refers to the oppressed in verse 5.
quote:
So by ignoring one thing in the Bible, the Bible tells us we have offended Yahweh.
None of the verses you've shared support that conclusion. The curses are basically against editing what the writer had written.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 10-31-2012 1:02 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 9:47 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 66 (677690)
10-31-2012 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Larni
10-31-2012 3:03 PM


Clarification
quote:
I had no thought of that: it makes it even hard for me to see how one can tell what is really, really, really cannon and what is metaphor.
How are you using the word metaphor and metaphorical?
A canon is nothing more than an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture.
Metaphor is a literary device.
Bible literalism is a type of interpretation.
Several literary techniques were employed by the Bible writers.
Several types of interpretation techniques are used by Christians to understand the Bible.
Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Larni, posted 10-31-2012 3:03 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 11-02-2012 11:56 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 66 (677902)
11-02-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Larni
11-02-2012 11:56 AM


Re: Clarification
quote:
What I mean is that (presumably) Christians take the ressurection of Jesus as 'actual factual'.
Why is this not a metaphor for a religion experiencing a boost when the cult leader dies?
So you don't wish to clarify. Sorry for bothering you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 11-02-2012 11:56 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Larni, posted 11-02-2012 8:30 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 66 (677993)
11-03-2012 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Larni
11-02-2012 8:30 PM


Re: Clarification
quote:
Dawn, you can be a real pain in the arse, sometimes.
As can people who use words incorrectly. BTW, my name is purpledawn or PD.
quote:
When I say metaphor I mean something that is not literally true. I mean not exactly as described. I mean not literal.
What more clarification do you (of all people, need?).
I've seen members chastised on the science side because they don't use terms correctly or seem to have their own meaning for terms.
It is difficult to have a debate with someone who doesn't use the right terms or uses them incorrectly.
Notice that metaphor does not fall under the antonyms or even near antonyms for literal.
Near Antonyms hypothetical, speculative, theoretical (also theoretic); apocryphal, unauthentic, undocumented; chimerical (also chimeric), fabulous, fanciful, fantastic (also fantastical), imaginary, imagined, invented, legendary, made-up, make-believe, mythical (or mythic), pretend; embroidered, exaggerated; insupportable, unsupportable
Antonyms fictional, fictionalized, fictitious, nondocumentary, nonfactual, nonhistorical, unhistorical
Notice the synonym for metaphor is metaphor. No antonyms listed.
Synonyms metaphor
Here is why equating metaphors with fiction or nonfactual can cause problems.
The following sentence can be part of a factual story or a fictional story. The metaphor does not tell us whether the person was real or not or whether the battle was real or not.
Henry was a lion on the battlefield. This sentence suggests that Henry fought so valiantly and bravely that he embodied all the personality traits we attribute to the ferocious animal. This sentence implies immediately that Henry was courageous and fearless, much like the King of the Jungle.
If Henry fought valiantly and bravely on the battle field, the statement is true even if it isn't literally true.
quote:
But if you just want to play you usual semantic games, I'm not interested.
I'm amazed you didn't get the hint that you were using the word incorrectly just from jar's posts and mine.
After Message 18, maybe you need to pay a little attention to the meaning.
Larni writes:
I had no thought of that: it makes it even hard for me to see how one can tell what is really, really, really cannon and what is metaphor.
Maybe that one should go in my signature block.
When one can't tell what is canon and what is metaphor, it is time to address meaning.
If you don't want to learn, that's up to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Larni, posted 11-02-2012 8:30 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2012 8:47 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 4:43 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 37 of 66 (678020)
11-04-2012 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Larni
11-04-2012 4:43 AM


Re: Clarification
quote:
What part of message 28 did you not understand?
I understood what you asked in Message 28, but it wasn't an answer to my question. It also wasn't consistent with your opening post. Quite frankly since you supposedly understood what jar was saying in Message 26, I was surprised that you even asked that question. It showed me you still didn't understand.
You also don't seem to understand the literal Biblical method of interpretation. This obviously doesn't include people who just "do their own thing" as you are.
Biblical Literalism
The essence of this approach focuses upon the author's intent as the primary meaning of the text.[4] Literal interpretation does place emphasis upon the referential aspect of the words or terms in the text. It does not, however, mean a complete denial of literary aspects, genre, or figures of speech within the text (e.g., parable, allegory, simile, or metaphor).[5] Also literalism does not necessarily lead to total and complete agreement upon one single interpretation for any given passage.
There are two types of literal interpretation: Letterism and the historical-grammatical method.
Letterism attempts to uncover the meaning of the text through a strict emphasis upon a mechanical, wooden literalism of words. This approach often obscures the literary aspects and consequently the primary meaning of the text.
The historical grammatical method is a hermeneutic technique that strives to uncover the meaning of the text by taking into account not just the grammatical words, but also the syntactical aspects, the cultural and historical background, and the literary genre.
As jar pointed out in Message 35, Christianity didn't really get a boost after Jesus died.
Until after the destruction of the temple, Christianity was still a sect of Judaism.
Reading if you're interested:
Early Christian Writings
The Spread of Christianity
Spread of Christianity
Rome and Christianity
Needless to say your question in Message 28, is not based on the Biblical text.
Larni writes:
What I mean is that (presumably) Christians take the ressurection of Jesus as 'actual factual'.
Why is this not a metaphor for a religion experiencing a boost when the cult leader dies?
According to your opening post, you want to look at the text.
Larni writes:
How do people who use the Bible as a bases for their Christianity decide what is literal and what is not?
Some bits are specifically stated as parables but others (Leviticus, I'm looking at you!) seem to be specific statutes that are either ignored or rebranded and not literal.
Is there a useful way to categorise literal verses from metaphorical? Message 1
So pardon my confusion, when your discussion flow is not consistent.
Pardon me for trying to give you better tools to work with and means to a better understanding.
Flounder on!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 4:43 AM Larni has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 66 (678037)
11-04-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Larni
11-04-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Book Curses
quote:
I disagree. The verse I had in my head was Deuteronomy 4:2. This seems pretty specific.
You disagree with what?
Yes, Deuteronomy 4:2 is specific, but it doesn't speak for other writings in the Bible. Not sure why you brought this back up considering you agreed with the comment jar made in Message 7 and now he's restated it in Message 39.
jar writes:
When looking at the Bible (whichever Canon you choose) the first step is to remember that it is NOT one book or story but rather an anthology of anthologies written by men for men of a particular era.
Most of what I'm saying falls under that idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 9:47 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 3:13 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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