Church helping community

Give you one other example of how we approach things. First of all we hate "Christianese", all those timeless Christian sayings that do nothing for the soul.We just hosted a Harvest festival at our church. We shelled out for the entire event, it was free, and there was games, rides, entertainment, and no preaching. But it was on the church grounds.

So what if I convince him that R/C planes are cool, and if he gets involved in them, his life can change? Did I just exploit him for sharing with him what I like?People do not lose dignity hearing about a religion either. Actually, most of the time he is not teaching me anything new. I am involved in leadership in the church, I run the worship ministry which is considered just as important as the preaching in our church. I just mostly agree with his preaching, and how he relates it to everyday living, and not so much in the afterlife. He is not playing on any of my weaknesses, that I know of. That could be a good topic for another thread. Never, if he did, I would smack him, and if he did it again, I would leave.
He once said we should have a sign over the door, now entering the kingdom of God, and the sign should be facing on the way out. If I spoke to them about R/C planes, and they got involved with me, I would be just as excited either way. As long as it is not harming their lives.So if I told them about R/C planes, and they decided to take up the hobby, is that exploitation? Or is it only when I mention God?
Either way I would leave the choice up to them.

A fair trade would be: You give them food and they give you their story. If you give them food and your story, they still "owe" you. Here's a thought: Why does your church need its own program at all? Why don't you all just volunteer your money, time and other resources to existing organizations? Maybe the soup kitchen needs their refrigeration unit serviced. Maybe the battered women's shelter needs some painting. Maybe the needle exchange program needs help with the rent.Why not just ask the other helping organizations how you can help them help?ABE: That's fine. You can have all the free Christmas concerts, Thanksgiving dinners and Sunday School picnics that you want but it isn't really "helping", is it? You're not dealing with people who need something.That's the kind of thing you should be doing for outreach, but outreach via "helping" is bound to be viewed as exploitaion by some.Edited by Ringo, : Amalgamated two replies.

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Shame on you for not thinking that.
Of course I do. I often volunteer my services to many places.
I even sometimes work for widows for free, and give people who are obviously struggling finacially a break when I work for them. But when I do, I feel I have to tell them it is in the name of the Lord, but thats the only thing I will mention about it. This is not exploitation, I gain nothing from it, as a matter of fact, it hurts me finacially, and they are the ones who gain.My job (my own plumbing and heating business) is often considered part of my ministry as well. Thats a good point.
But still if we startiong preaching to people at that event, I would have considered it exploiting people.Check out the synonyms for exploiting:

quote:

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Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source
Main Entry: corrupt
Part of Speech: adjective 1
Definition: dishonest
Synonyms: base, bent, bribable, crooked, debauched, double-dealing, exploiting, extortionate, faithless, fixed, foul, fraudulent, inconstant, iniquitous, knavish, mercenary, nefarious, open, padded*, perfidious, praetorian, profiteering, racket up*, reprobate, rotten, shady, snide, tainted, treacherous, two-faced, underhanded, unethical, unfaithful, unprincipled, unscrupulous, untrustworthy, venal
Antonyms: decent, ethical, honest, honorable, moral, principled, scrupulous, trustworthy, truthful, uncorrupt
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
* = informal or slang

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I don't see how even the synonyms even explain me helping someone and talking to them about God. None of those words describe how I help people at all.Maybe manipulate would be a better term, for those that do take advantage of peoples weaknesses, unless they are getting some personal gain from it, such as members for a church, then it is exploiting.I am sorry Ringo if you feel like banging your head against the wall with this one, but I really can't stand being called an exploiter. People who do that are accusers. lol I just looked up the word accuser, and this was one of the definitions:

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accuser

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Satan is styled the "accuser of the brethren" (Rev. 12:10. Comp. Job 1:6; Zech.
3:1), as seeking to uphold his influence among men by bringing false charges
against Christians, with the view of weakening their influence and injuring the
cause with which they are identified. He was regarded by the Jews as the accuser
of men before God, laying to their charge the violations of the law of which
they were guilty, and demanding their punishment. The same Greek word, rendered
"accuser," is found in John 8:10 (but omitted in the Revised Version); Acts
23:30, 35; 24:8; 25:16, 18, in all of which places it is used of one who brings
a charge against another.

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At dictionary.com
lol

That's not what I was talking about.I suggested that your church could do that instead of having its own program. That is, all of your members could contribute via outside agencies and not have any charitable activities linked to your church at all.When you volunteer at Catholic Family Services, if somebody asks you why you're helping, you can say, "Because it's the right thing to do." If they want spiritual guidance, they can go to the priest.-------------As for your dictionary definitions, I don't give a flying riVeRraT's ass.It's clear that I have been wasting my time talking to you about exploitation. All you seem to care about is what you think is exploitive.For the last time: It doesn't matter if everybody in the world but you is wrong about exploitation. Right or wrong, if you talk about your religion while helping somebody, then somebody will think you're exploiting them. If you don't want people to think you're exploiting anybody, then don't mix material help with spiritual help.And don't waste any more of my time with what you think exploitation is.Edited by Ringo, : Multiple spelling glitches.

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Did I forget to mention the fact that I worship satan now? I do evil stuff in this world in exchange for super sexual powers. To tell you the truth, I can't stand being called an exploiter either. That's why I don't exploit, period. Refer back to my example about driving a runaway home.To me, you should help people without any fine print. That is one thing I cannot stand: being helped and then find out I forgot to read the fine print. Want to be a real good person? Help people without exploiting their financial and emotional weakness for your own religious ends. If you want to spread the word, wait until they are more financially and emotionally secured. Until then, you're only exploiting their weakness.Ok, I guess I should explain more. You keep saying that bring these people to the lord you believe should help them get back on their feet. The reason I object to it is because it is still up for debate. I personally think it's better for them to be atheists but then it's still up for debate so I don't try to "convert" them either.I don't think anybody is going to argue against the universality of goodness of distributing hot soup to hungry people unless you're in deep philosophical la-la-land (ahem holmes ). I don't think anyone is going to argue against teaching people how to read and write.But the direction of spirituality is up for debate. That's why I only rant about my atheism to people who aren't emotionally vulnerable to my rant. When I help people, I don't subject them to my rants about the spiritual (or nonspiritual) path I have chosen. When I help people, I make sure they know that there's no catch or fine print anywhere.But you know what, now that I think about it, I do exploit them to some degree. I sit there quietly listening to their stories. It helps me understand the human conditions and psychology more. You could say I manipulate them with my silence to get them to tell me their stories. (Sorry, just had to point that out before someone decides to point it out... like comparing missionary works with teaching people how to read and write)

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This assumes you get to define one.RR mentioned that he done good works before he believed, which means that he doesn't do it for "religious ends".How could religious ends be the cause if he done good works before he turned religious? Come on, you're deliberately antagonising him now. I've known RR at this forum for a while now, and you're doing an injustice to him.First he done one good thing, then, afterward, he got faith and gave them a message of hope. That's two good things. If you want to be a real good person Gasb', then give them hope of God, because it is possible that God exists.

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How could religious ends be the cause if he done good works before he turned religious?

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Because his reasons for doing good acts can change over time.Just because he used to do them without religious motivation doesn't preclude him having religious ends now.

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First he done one good thing, then, afterward, he got faith and gave them a message of hope. That's two good things.

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A message of hope may not be a good thing, if the hope is a false one.

I think I mentioned it. That is why we started Hope for the Nations U.S. A place where we accept non-faith based grants to help people. I don't think that is fair what your saying, that I should be more worried about what others think is exploitation, than what is actually explopitation.I am more worried that people actually call it exploitation when it is clearly not in some circumstances. I guess there is a line where you can only take so much of the accusations, and peoples BS.I say that, and I hope that people who have genuine worries, and good advice won't feel that I am talking about them.

It might be better for them to be atheists.By you telling me how you becoming an atheist helped you so much, is no different then me telling someone else how God has helped me so much. Even if you gave me a ride somewhere, I wouldn't call it exploitation, just a conversation.Now if you told me that I would have to call myself atheist, or accept some demon-god sex goddess as my one true God or else burn in heaven, in order to get the ride, that is clearly exploitation, no doubt. A fine example of critical thinking, I love it. We think the same about some things.

While that is a possibility for some, I wouldn't say that is how it is with me. Feeling what I believe to be God's love in my life has only increased how I already was. Do commanders in the military tell their soldiers they are going to die? Hope can be a good thing.

Hey, he asked for my opinion, remember? Then let RR prove me wrong by helping people without trying to bring god's mercy upon their souls. Let him prove me wrong then. Let him help people without sharing his good news. I don't think so. Let me tell you something, I am "antagonising" him because I look down on his (and your) moral standards... but that's a different story. Again, let him prove me wrong by doing good deeds without trying to bring religion (or the lack there of) into it. Should I have tried to give that young runaway who was trying to get home MY message of hope? Should I have told him that he was delusional to have believed in god?Like I said, prove me wrong and help people without trying to bring the grace of a nonexistent god upon their souls. Prove me wrong there is indeed goodness behind all that... religious stuff (I was gonna say something that would have gotten me a suspension).

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Too funny. Why would anyone even bother to try to prove you wrong? Why in the world would anyone care what you think?Hey RR, carry on. Screw these folk. If they think you are exploiting folk that is THEIR problem, not yours.

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You still have it backwards. I suggested that you don't start your own organization to accept grants from others. I suggested that you give grants to existing organizations. I'll remind you again what you said in the OP:

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How can we fulfill those needs without exploiting, or seeming like we are exploiting them?

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That's the point I have been addressing.I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you would not knowingly exploit anybody. But the more you write, the more it seems like you are just trying to justify what you're already doing.Fine. Keep doing what you're doing. But don't ask for suggestions and then argue about everything that's suggested.

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That's a reasonable point but all we know is that he feeds the poor, and that's that. People are making out that there is a condition with that, but there isn't. He would still feed them even if they told him to f*** off, when he started talking about Jesus.Sure, technically he could have done it for malevolent reasons in the past, and now he uses religion. I concede that that's logically possible, but his feeding poor people, has no causal connection with his faith/religion. It's impossible that has always done this for "religious ends", so why conclude that he does now? We can atleast conclude that in the past he didn't have a religious end, which infact implies that he's genuine.But we have no evidence, or reason, to suspect he is doing it for bad reasons. Only fundyexploiterphobia has been put forward, IMO. That's not enough to actually accuse someone.Technically, I could treat everyone as an exploiter untill they're proven not to be, but that would be silly.At this stage, I agree with Jar, that this isn't therefore, RR's problem.Do I understand why you don't like religious people talking to vulnerable people? Absolutely. From your perspective, God is a false hope.