EvC Forum: Church helping community

Message 92 of 174 (363630)
11-13-2006 4:34 PM

Reply to: Message 90 by jar
11-13-2006 2:24 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

quote:
Not sure how that makes a functional difference.

Well, let me explain it to you.

The people going to a cookout are not destitute and desperate, and the people going to a soup kitchen are.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 90 by jar, posted 11-13-2006 2:24 PM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 93 by jar, posted 11-13-2006 4:47 PM		nator has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

Message 93 of 174 (363632)
11-13-2006 4:47 PM

Reply to: Message 92 by nator
11-13-2006 4:34 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

You agreed that if a Woman's Rights Group sponsored a cookout they could distribute their literature. Is that correct?

You kinda ignored the question asked in the message you replied to.

The people going to a cookout are not destitute and desperate, and the people going to a soup kitchen are.

And you know that because...?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 92 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 4:34 PM		nator has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 94 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 7:13 PM		jar has replied

nator

Member (Idle past 2200 days)

Posts: 12961

From: Ann Arbor

Joined: 12-09-2001

Message 94 of 174 (363654)
11-13-2006 7:13 PM

Reply to: Message 93 by jar
11-13-2006 4:47 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

If both the cookout and the soup kitchen was serving destitute, desperate people, then no, I don't think that literature should be distributed.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 93 by jar, posted 11-13-2006 4:47 PM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 95 by jar, posted 11-13-2006 7:19 PM		nator has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

Message 95 of 174 (363659)
11-13-2006 7:19 PM

Reply to: Message 94 by nator
11-13-2006 7:13 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

Okay, but...

you agree that "helping someone "rise out of destitution, drug addiction, illiteracy, or mental illness..." would be a good thing?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 94 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 7:13 PM		nator has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 96 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 7:30 PM		jar has replied

nator

Member (Idle past 2200 days)

Posts: 12961

From: Ann Arbor

Joined: 12-09-2001

Message 96 of 174 (363661)
11-13-2006 7:30 PM

Reply to: Message 95 by jar
11-13-2006 7:19 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

Yes, it is.

My problem is a moral one.

I think it is immoral to try to influence (or to not take pains to avoid doing it unintentionally) anybody's religious beliefs when they are desperate and emotionally vulnerable.

Period.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 95 by jar, posted 11-13-2006 7:19 PM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 97 by Taz, posted 11-14-2006 12:15 AM	nator has replied
	Message 99 by jar, posted 11-14-2006 10:48 AM	nator has replied

Taz

Member (Idle past 3322 days)

Posts: 5069

From: Zerus

Joined: 07-18-2006

Taz Posts Only

Message 97 of 174 (363688)
11-14-2006 12:15 AM

Reply to: Message 96 by nator
11-13-2006 7:30 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

schraf writes:

I think it is immoral to try to influence (or to not take pains to avoid doing it unintentionally) anybody's religious beliefs when they are desperate and emotionally vulnerable.

I tried for a dozen posts or so explaining this very easy-to-understand-or-so-I-thought concept without any success. Looks like if you are religious and view your religion as the only true one out there then it's pointless for people like us to try to explain to them why it is immoral and sometimes exploitative to do what they're doing.

The fact that we have to point out the difference between a recreational activity and a life and death activity gives you an idea of their mindset.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 96 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 7:30 PM		nator has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 98 by nator, posted 11-14-2006 7:37 AM	Taz has not replied
	Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 11-14-2006 12:38 PM	Taz has not replied

nator

Member (Idle past 2200 days)

Posts: 12961

From: Ann Arbor

Joined: 12-09-2001

Message 98 of 174 (363716)
11-14-2006 7:37 AM

Reply to: Message 97 by Taz
11-14-2006 12:15 AM

Re: Spiritual Help

quote:
The fact that we have to point out the difference between a recreational activity and a life and death activity gives you an idea of their mindset.

What I still don't understand is how talking about being a Mets fan and talking about your religious faith could be considered equivalent activities.

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	Message 97 by Taz, posted 11-14-2006 12:15 AM		Taz has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

Message 99 of 174 (363733)
11-14-2006 10:48 AM

Reply to: Message 96 by nator
11-13-2006 7:30 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

Schraf agrees that

you agree that "helping someone "rise out of destitution, drug addiction, illiteracy, or mental illness..." would be a good thing?"

but then she goes on to add:

Yes, it is.

My problem is a moral one.

I think it is immoral to try to influence (or to not take pains to avoid doing it unintentionally) anybody's religious beliefs when they are desperate and emotionally vulnerable.

Period.

If you add personal experience overcoming drug addiction, poverty or illiteracy would it be appropriate to share that knowledge?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 96 by nator, posted 11-13-2006 7:30 PM		nator has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 100 by nator, posted 11-14-2006 10:55 AM		jar has replied

nator

Member (Idle past 2200 days)

Posts: 12961

From: Ann Arbor

Joined: 12-09-2001

Message 100 of 174 (363734)
11-14-2006 10:55 AM

Reply to: Message 99 by jar
11-14-2006 10:48 AM

Re: Spiritual Help

quote:
If you add personal experience overcoming drug addiction, poverty or illiteracy would it be appropriate to share that knowledge?

You can share that.

But what does that have to do with religion?

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	Message 99 by jar, posted 11-14-2006 10:48 AM		jar has replied

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	Message 101 by jar, posted 11-14-2006 10:59 AM		nator has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

Message 101 of 174 (363735)
11-14-2006 10:59 AM

Reply to: Message 100 by nator
11-14-2006 10:55 AM

Re: Spiritual Help

schraf agrees that:

jar writes:

If you add personal experience overcoming drug addiction, poverty or illiteracy would it be appropriate to share that knowledge?

but the adds:

You can share that.

But what does that have to do with religion?

If the way that you changed your life was through religion, through changing the focus of your life, could you share that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
	Message 100 by nator, posted 11-14-2006 10:55 AM		nator has not replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 447 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004

Message 102 of 174 (363743)
11-14-2006 12:19 PM

Reply to: Message 63 by nator
11-12-2006 10:20 AM

Re: vulnerables

On that note, how could anyone, including you and your church group, know who needs to hear about God?

Anyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus, and is guided by the Holy Spirit. We do nothing in our church without a lot of praying.

This country is overwhelmingly Christian, Rat.

This country is overwelmingly ignorant.

Everybody knows about Christianity. Everybody.

BS. You should retract that statement. Just because they are aware that it exists, does not mean they have enough information to make an intelligent choice about following God.

Take this challenge: ask every catholic you see, who and what is the Holy spirit, and see if they can answer you.

What they need is what they came for.

Now you know everyone's needs? Give me a break.
They didn't come for anything, we went to them.

What you do need to do is not change the definition you use in the middle of your argument.

How many times has the definition been posted? I have not deviated from the true meaning of exploitation, nor do I exploit people, at any level of life.

Do you actually expect me to believe that we have been using

"3. the combined, often varied, use of public-relations and advertising techniques to promote a person, movie, product, etc."

as our definition of "exploitation" all along in this conversation?

Absolutely. Just change a few words to mean God, or whatever.

Please point us to the definition you are using, and stop puttingdown the acutal definition.

I have claimed that destitute, needy, possibly ill people are more vulnerable to suggestion and outside influence than someone not in desperate straits, so are therefore more easily exploited and manipulated, even if you do not intend to exploit or manipulate.

Two things.
1. I don't agree, I believe all people are just as easily exploitable, all you have to do is meet them on their level of needs/desires then you can start exploiting.

2. Just how are we exploiting them?
Just how are we manipulating them?

It's a free choice, and one that no outside force could ever really impose on someone, to believe in God. It is something that comes from your heart, and cannot be verified.

I have simply pointed out that even if mentally ill or drug-addicted or illiterate or destitute people do accept your religion, they are no less vulnerable because their situation in life is no different.

Then you missed my point. The point of turning to God, is a life changing one, which could quite possibly bring you out of your place of need, and vulnerability.

Teach them to read, or help them get alcohol or drug treatment, or job training, or medical care.

Of course we do that, that is the primary objective.

When they are on their feet and have a more secure life and hope for a decent future and feel good about themselves (iow, are not as vulnerable to influence from anyone, your religious group included), THEN you can talk to them about your religion.

I don't like religion.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 63 by nator, posted 11-12-2006 10:20 AM		nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 108 by ringo, posted 11-14-2006 1:06 PM		riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 447 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004

Message 103 of 174 (363746)
11-14-2006 12:22 PM

Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
11-12-2006 12:08 PM

Re: Spiritual Help

But don't negate the possibility that something RR says will spark the individual to action whether it is towards religion or not.

Thanks purple dawn, you are helping to express what I feel.

I just want to say, that if there is anything that I say, and it sparks a change in someone, then the credit should go to God. I am not capable of sparking life changes with my own words.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 11-12-2006 12:08 PM		purpledawn has not replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 447 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004

Message 104 of 174 (363747)
11-14-2006 12:30 PM

Reply to: Message 83 by purpledawn
11-13-2006 6:56 AM

Re: Disclaimer Shirt

Just wear a shirt with a disclaimer.

When I talk to people about God, I always give sort of a disclaimer to people. It's all about freedom of choice.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2006 6:56 AM		purpledawn has not replied

riVeRraT

Member (Idle past 447 days)

Posts: 5788

From: NY USA

Joined: 05-09-2004