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Author Topic:   Is Global Population Evidence For Noahic Flood?
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 58 (602177)
01-26-2011 4:28 PM


The Noahic Flood never happened.
It does not matter how much evidence that there was a Noahic Flood you make up Buz, the Biblical Flood has been totally refuted. It simply never happened as described.
The fact of the matter has been pointed out to you in the past; if the Biblical flood ever happened it MUST leave the genetic signature of a bottleneck event in EVERY existing living thing.
Have you ever read the Bible?
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:
quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:
quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:
quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthmen and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airfor I am grieved that I have made them."
and in Genesis 7:
quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.
If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.
Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).
Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.
We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.
BUT...
If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.
Talk about a big RED flag.
That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.
So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.
If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.
If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.
That genetic marker is NOT there.
The Biblical Flood has been refuted.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2011 7:10 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 58 (602212)
01-26-2011 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
01-26-2011 7:10 PM


Re: Thread Focus: Population Evidence: Floodist Or Evolutionist
Buzsaw writes:
Jar, this thread is about whether population data is more supportive to the Genesis flood or to Evolution. That's what I want to focus on. Other aspects of the flood should be taken to the appropriate thread.
There was no flood Buz.
The population data you present supports NOTHING. It is totally irrelevant to either subject.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2011 7:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 58 (602226)
01-26-2011 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
01-26-2011 8:22 PM


No different atmosphere.
According to the Biblical record, living things, including humans lived considerably longer before the flood when there was a totally different atmosphere and climate.
Once again Buz, you have been shown that is utter nonsense and any different preflood atmosphere while humans have existed is totally refuted.
So we have two cases of you once again posting stuff that is simply false. From this thread.
quote:
There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.
What do we know about Oetzi?
First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.
He lived about 5300 years ago and so Adam was still alive.
His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.
He was born and his childhood was near the present town of Feldthurns in what today is Italy, but then moved about 50 km south.
He was around 40-50 years old when he died.
He had eaten twice recently, one Chamois, the other Red Deer meat along with fruit and grain, likely bread.
His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.
There was blood from four other people on him.
Pollen showed that he ate his last meal in a mid altitude conifer forest and that it was spring time.
The biggest thing is that NOTHING was very different. There were NO signs of some Super-Genome in his makeup, the makeup of the other people, the critters or food, the materials used.
So, if there was some super-genome, why are there no signs of it in the people, animals, plants, spores and pollen contemporary with Adam?
Not only does Oetzi show that the humans that would have been contemporary with Adam were genetically similar to those after the time of the Flood Myth, it shows that the atmosphere and everything else was similar.
Why do you keep repeating stuff that has been long refuted?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2011 8:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 58 (602281)
01-27-2011 9:40 AM


Some Basics that may help us get back on topic.
First, if the Biblical Flood myths were true then the genetic bottleneck markers should be found in every living animal today. Those markers are not there and so the flood is refuted.
Second, if there was some different "pre-Flood" environment then that should also show up in Oetzi and all the additional evidence from Oetzi like pollens and materials and woods and 'shrooms that were found on and in Oetzi (as just one example) as well as in the actual samples of air found trapped in amber and ice cores from that period. It does not and so the magic "pre-Flood atmosphere" has been refuted.
Now that those two bits of nonsense are eliminated maybe Buz can address the topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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